A negative side of English culture - the politics of envy

[Endlesssummer2022]

Let me start by saying I’m English with one immigrant parent.

This is something I’ve occasionally thought about over the years.

We often get told the positives of English culture e.g fair play, loving to queue, dry sense of humour, loving animals etc but rarely acknowledge anything negative.

Envy is a huge problem here and makes all of our lives worse in so many ways because instead of trying to make things better, many of us use more energy trying to bring others down.

I believe this behaviour climaxed at the Brexit vote when a large portion of voters were fixated on bringing down ‘metropolitan elites’ aka the educated and Londoners because they perceived them to have more. All this did was make us all of our lives harder and poorer.

Many people cheer and rush to vote if they think something they don’t have will be taken away from someone else. Rather than work out how to get these things themselves, change lifestyle, make different decisions, accept not everyone can have the same, decide not to focus on what others have or don’t have, they get angry and campaign for others to have less to make themselves feel better.

Every major election win since 2016 has been built on spite and envy and as a result things get worse for all of us. It’s becoming more and more depressing that this mentality seems to be endemic. Middle class people are lumped in with the super rich who many despise and because people feel powerless to do anything about the super rich, they focus their anger on the middle class and want to bring them down a peg or two.

Envy and spite is just making our country increasingly poorer in multiple ways. The country doesn’t feel aspirational anymore. It’s making me consider whether I want to continue to bring my kids up here. Is envy a big part of the cultures of other countries?

We have a huge problem with inequality in this country.

Yes - It wouldn’t be all be it would be enough to cause issues in areas where state places are in short supply, That’s why it’s a stupid politics of envy type policy aimed at appealing to some who like that type of thing.

It is possible to build up and not tear down - it’s why Blair did well, he celebrated what was good about the U.K. without bringing various elements down

We need those assets, they attract people to live here eg top schools, financial services, creative sector and probably others

To be honest its not something I've noticed in the UK.

Definitely keeping up with Joneses mentality/thinking the grass is greener but not spitefulness/envy. I've noticed these traits everywhere.

The U.K. has been described as a poor country with some extremely wealthy people - by that well known left wing rag, the Financial Times- www.ft.com/content/ef265420-45e8-497b-b308-c951baa68945

inequality is horrendous in this country, it drives division & the shitshow of Brexit. Some Eastern European countries are rapidly overtaking the U.K. in terms of average wealth of citizens & no doubt quality of life.

Phrases like politics of envy completely ignore the causes of so much misery in the U.K.

Lots of folk wittered on about the 'liberal lefty metropolitan elite' living in an ivory tower and forcing multiculturism immigration on us. Liberal lefty elite being shorthand for educated middle class types who wring their hands over social issues like poverty and inequality and tend to vote Labour.

I do get some of this criticism though. I live in such an area & it's been labour for decades. I was born & raised here but my parents were immigrants which was the normal demographic when I was young. The area has gentrified beyond belief & the demographic has changed considerably with most of my road now being made up of white English people. A lot of my new neighbours who love diversity & are very anti Brexit are in a bubble & have clearly never really mixed with anyone outside their bubble.

I suppose social media has given everybody the opportunity to sell things online; to be influencers. Not everyone can do it, but I suppose there are more opportunities than ever before.

I know people who make things; resell clothes at a profit; photograph friends's weddings. There are those gigs. However, I accept that not everyone is creative.

I think expecting to be able to manage on two salaries and bemoaning the cost of childcare is just being realistic and saying something is wrong with the system. I don't think that that is envy.

Blair did well because he invested in public services & put money into early childhood support & education (education, education).

Private schools are pretty much an irrelevance to anyone except the parents forking out thousands each year for them. On the whole people are not staring enviously at them wishing their child could be there (& before anyone thinks I am envious two of my kids went to a private school for primary, we didn’t leave the sector weeping at 11). My kids have managed mainstream primary, private primary, special, grammar, free school & comprehensive & FE college between them. My favourite schools were the special (way at the top), big comp & free school before Ofsted shut it down). Ie the most socially mixed schools.

Yep I think it's ingrained in the British culture not just English. Ambition is almost a dirty word in some parts and with the class system there still is an element of getting above your station. In Scotland at least the SNP bang on about closing the attaininment gap between the rich and poor but we don't want to achieve that by making the standards of education shit for all! I wish they'd fo

I wish they'd focus on raising attainment levels for all instead!

And it's actually by living & working in that bubble that I've become more aware of it. I grew up fairly comfortable and had friends similar but this new "bubble" is another world. I talk to a friend about moving as they are desperate for more space, next thing they are upsizing due to 200k gift from parents. Or a friends dc is struggling, the next thing gps are footing the school fees. I don't begrudge anyone this it was more the realisation that some people have a massive safety net but a lot of people don't acknowledge the benefits of that.

Yeh the key is to build things up not drag people down so it’s more level

How dare the people working their arses off for a pittance envy those who do very little but earn ten times more and blame the poor for being poor. Dreadful isn't it?

It's not envy it's the result of living in what is supposed to be a meritocracy and the perception of fairness. Fairness is a big deal for brits.

I think a lot of what is wrong in our country has to do with:

• right wing media (Daily Mail and co) pushing the narrative that people are worse off because of immigrants and benefit ''scroungers'' which detracts some people from seeing what is really going on: that in reality they are struggling because of governments who are in place to only favour the wealthy, maintain inequalities and keep the ''plebs'' in their place...
• a lack of education. We really don't have a good mainstream education system in many places and people never develop critical thinking and the basic skills to see beyond what TV or part of the media tells them
• The class system and Empire hangover: there is something in the English psyche that somehow leads them to think that some people are better than others and that it gives them the right to look down on specific group of people in society or anyone who happens to be a foreigner
• Wanting others to be as miserable as you are if you are unhappy with your lot rather than fighting to address the root causes of your misery. Being passive aggressive is very English. Compare that to the French attitude to hardship: they will immediately strike/protest/attack a government if their basic rights are threatened. The English just moan....

So I don't think it is just envy as such that is a problem. There are a lot of factors that combined to give us disasters like Brexit and Tory governments who were allowed to flirt with Fascism with little opposition.

I don’t think it’s envy but us Brits are obsessed with class and there’s a huge amount of classism in our culture and it seeps into our institutions and every aspect of our lives. That has a lot to answer for IMO. It’s every class too. I’m from a MC background and DH is from a WC background - the amount of sneery inverted snobbery I get from his family because of things I’ve done it the way I speak really gets on my tits, they don’t even know they do it anymore, and it’s, IMO, extremely common (but I wouldn’t call it envy).

A Pp put it perfectly - we don’t like y’all poppies here!

Also this kind of attitude is a problem - “If it’s shit for me it should be shit for you”. I’ve seen this a lot, I’ve seen it in schools, workplaces, and just general life.

Rather than work out how to get these things themselves, change lifestyle, make different decisions, accept not everyone can have the same, decide not to focus on what others have or don’t have

The trouble is that "getting those things" often involves investing (usually by your parents) in the first place. Many careers with a decent salary require a decent education. A decent education costs money (either to obtain the education or to subsidise other costs). If you (or your parents) don't have money, you're going to struggle to achieve the goal.

Anecdotally, 90% of the high earners I know went to private school and then to decent universities (and therefore on to good jobs) as a result. That's not something you can change by turning back the clock as an adult. The other 10% were very lucky to be in the right place at the right time. The children of the high earners are being sent to private schools and being set up to 'do well' in life by default. And so the cycle continues...

There's a huge inequality. The education system should be set up so that every child has the equal opportunity to attend a decent school and then a decent university should they wish, without parents needing to pay for expensive tutors, schools, uniforms, etc.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. It's possible for the children of, say, low paid factory workers to do well at school/university and become doctors or lawyers if they wish. But those are exceptions and not the norm. Ideally it would be the norm.

London is like a different country to me - and I'm talkng about public transport - I mean you only have to walk a couple of hundred yards and there's a bus stop or a tube station. Soooooooooo much was invested in London. I know that the tax from the finance industry in London was MAKING the money but come on Gov - share it out - we aren't all sitting twiddling our thumbs in the rest of the country - the SE is hugely overcrowded - this has been the case for decades - everything for London.
We have about 2 buses in one direction and two in the other here per day - not timed to match train times or any other service. Just useless.
It's ridiculously unfair.

Everyone gets 13 years of free education - 13 years !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know there is a problem with some schools regarding behaviour but I don't see how parents can't get hold of the syllabus and help their DCs do better if the school IS that bad. Problem is kids not appreciating what a necessary asset this education is (me included).

@Redqueenheart this is an interesting point that got me thinking:

a lack of education. We really don't have a good mainstream education system in many places and people never develop critical thinking and the basic skills to see beyond what TV or part of the media tells them

I'm job hunting at the moment and have found that some employers state they require a degree (any degree) even if you have a number of years experience. Their reasoning seems to be that degree educated applicants have a higher level of critical thinking than non degree educated applicants.
I'd understand if this applied to graduate level roles, but the criteria is applied to management level roles for which applicants will have a number of years experience. It's interesting that the employer must have found such a contrast between applicants/employees.

People often don't realise that education is so important.

Some parents can't help because they were badly educated themselves, not all parents can read, for example.

Some parents can't help because they're not academically able. They'd need to hire a tutor, which costs money (which they may not have).

Some parents can't help because they're having to work all the hours they cannin order to put food on the table and therefore don't have time to help their children.

Some parents don't care. Sometimes because they don't have the education that would enable them to appreciate the opportunities that education opens up.

Some parents are not natural teachers. In fact, this is the case for many. During lockdown there were many parents who said they just didn't know how to start trying to help their children who were getting behind.

Just throwing some examples out there... it's not always as simple as "just get the syllabus and top up education yourselves".

Children often don't appreciate what they have. But when it comes to education (plus food, clothing, a roof over their heads) they should be given it anyway.

Taxes are for education. Education which should be provided to a high standard so that it doesn't matter if children are affected by the circumstances outlined above.

That’s not what she is saying.

I have seen high earners talk about they deserve their 6 figure salaries because they work so hard. As if those paid less don’t.

I have an Oxbridge degree (and a few others) so know a lot of high earners. I was an unpaid carer for decades so get to see both sides. Frankly the values in this country are totally skewed. Financial services are massively over paid. I had hoped that the pandemic would give a bit of a wake up call to society - which jobs are the most important? Which ones make the biggest difference - not the wanker banker or the corporate care CEO or the advertising exec. It’s the key workers. Stop clapping them, start paying them & you’d reduce inequality at the same time.

I agree OP, I think the current strikes are an example.
Rail workers have good wage and conditions, they want that maintained. I've heard a lot of opposition along the lines of 'well I didn't have it so good in my job, so they shouldn't either'. I just don't get it. Why wouldn't people think rail workers should have those things, and so should I.

A sense of fair play works both ways.

I live in a deprived working class area and know loads of enterprising, thinking, clued up folks whose opportunities and quality of life are limited by inherited poverty, a comprehensive education and the fact that they don’t speak with a cut glass accent. They still do ok, but not as well as they should.

Until you live that life you’ll never understand the gnawing, low-level resentment at the injustice and the illogic of a system that squanders and mocks the poor. And underestimates how angry it makes us when we are dismissed politically in derogatory terms when we don’t vote the way the middle classes want us to because we don’t see life through their eyes.