A negative side of English culture - the politics of envy

[Endlesssummer2022]

Let me start by saying I’m English with one immigrant parent.

This is something I’ve occasionally thought about over the years.

We often get told the positives of English culture e.g fair play, loving to queue, dry sense of humour, loving animals etc but rarely acknowledge anything negative.

Envy is a huge problem here and makes all of our lives worse in so many ways because instead of trying to make things better, many of us use more energy trying to bring others down.

I believe this behaviour climaxed at the Brexit vote when a large portion of voters were fixated on bringing down ‘metropolitan elites’ aka the educated and Londoners because they perceived them to have more. All this did was make us all of our lives harder and poorer.

Many people cheer and rush to vote if they think something they don’t have will be taken away from someone else. Rather than work out how to get these things themselves, change lifestyle, make different decisions, accept not everyone can have the same, decide not to focus on what others have or don’t have, they get angry and campaign for others to have less to make themselves feel better.

Every major election win since 2016 has been built on spite and envy and as a result things get worse for all of us. It’s becoming more and more depressing that this mentality seems to be endemic. Middle class people are lumped in with the super rich who many despise and because people feel powerless to do anything about the super rich, they focus their anger on the middle class and want to bring them down a peg or two.

Envy and spite is just making our country increasingly poorer in multiple ways. The country doesn’t feel aspirational anymore. It’s making me consider whether I want to continue to bring my kids up here. Is envy a big part of the cultures of other countries?

Any person, from any country can be envious. It’s not a uniquely English thing.

We often get told the positives of English culture e.g fair play, loving to queue, dry sense of humour, loving animals etc but rarely acknowledge anything negative.

Rubbish. English people are very self critical, and seeing a pride in being English is hugely frowned upon.

I think the main problem with envy is people use it far too often to try and explain things away (for other people). You see it on here all the time, if someone perceives someone else doesn't like them "she's jealous" even when it's fairly obvious the OP is at least partially at fault.

I'm not sure about envy but I do think we undervalue (and underfund) education in this country.

“I believe this behaviour climaxed at the Brexit vote when a large portion of voters were fixated on bringing down ‘metropolitan elites’ aka the educated and Londoners because they perceived them to have more”
Nope. A large proportion of voters were fed up with self-designated ‘metropolitan elites’ telling them they were racist and thick, instead of answering their questions about perceived issues with how the EU was progressing. These voters were also worried that the EU was seemingly ignoring their discomfort at being dragged into a super-state ruled mainly by Brussels, whose representatives were also becoming increasingly and publicly disrespectful about the UK public as a whole.
The envy thing is definitely a ”lefty” issue rather than a class one, though…

My paternal grandfather was a farm labourer. He’d work all day on someone else’s farm and then go home and start work on his own little smallholding. He was determined that his children (my mother and her siblings) would have a better life than he did and made them all work hard so they got into grammar school and ended up in professional jobs (doctor, lawyer, teacher). This kind of social mobility doesn’t happen any more - why is that? Why do people born i to poverty have the odds stacked against them so much?

Three posts in, this intellectual heavyweight hurls an insult. I suspect, OP, this is exactly the kind of person your post is about.

If other countries don't have this problem it could be because they don't have the upper/middle classes making it to the top jobs by way of a privileged education.
I don't think there is such a demand for private schooling in the rest of Europe.

There is now an attempt to correct this by encouraging children from Comps to get into Oxbridge etc. But it's a slow process.

So because of this perhaps they are entitled to feel envy as the odds are against them.

they got into grammar school and ended up in professional jobs (doctor, lawyer, teacher). This kind of social mobility doesn’t happen any more - why is that?
Because tutoring gets middle class the top places.

It's not just about accessing the education though. The kids need to engage with it.
Yes some parents may not be able to read but that doesn't stop a child doing well.
Plenty of examples of non speaking poor immigrant parents who's kids do well.
My kids go to state school and disrupted lessons are completely normal because many kids don't care and would rather not be at school.
It impacts on everyone.
This is one of the biggest advantages of private schools. Not the facilities or better teachers (there are excellent teachers in the State schools) but the whole class onboard with learning.

Smaller class sizes would be the single most helpful intervention in schooling IMO.

I agree with you OP. I lived abroad for 20 years and I can definitely seethat people despise others who try to get on here. I experience it directly at work and at my DC's school and even in my extended family.

I come from a northern WC estate. My dad used to lay tarmac for a living. My mum died when I was a teenager. By rights, my opportunities should have been restricted, but they were not. I got myself to college, I went to Uni, I moved to London, I lived and worked in other countries. Back here I put myself forward for loads of things at work, only for other jobsworths to complain that I am being favoured. Other parents complain and try to block things my DS is included in at school as theirs were not picked. It is tall poppy syndrome. They are not prepared to do the extra work or hours, or get their DC to work harder or train harder, but it is not alright for you to benefit from your efforts. Both my DH and my brothers are from the same stock as me, and all did the same.

Back here in the UK I can go online and do free courses. I did 3 in lockdown. My DC do extra work for free online or I go to WH Smiths and get workbooks for them that cost £3.99. They are disciplined and do it gladly. That's why my DC just got all 9's in their GCSE's.

I know loads of people who had humble beginnings that are living very comfortably. They either worked really hard, took gambles that paid off eventually, worked abroad, studied really hard, or commuted Mon - Fri and lived away from their families. I know someone who lives in remote Scotland and works M-F in London. His family live in a nice house, and his DC go to a private school. Are you prepared to do that for your family?

Some people are unable to access these opportunities due to disabilities or other issues and I have the utmost sympathy for them. For everyone else, if people who come to this country with nothing but the clothes on their backs, can raise doctors and lawyers, you need to ask yourself what they are doing, that we are not. It is not for the lack of opportunities, but the lack of good parenting, discipline and ambition.

Yep, I had a class of under 20 last year for the first time. Just an anomaly. The difference it made was huge and the children had the best outcomes of any class I've taught.

Just don't see this envy the OP is talking about at all, what i see is lack of fairness and opportunity for all.

We can't all be rocket scientists or indeed bankers but why is one set of workers valued more highly than others?

e.g recent tax cut, the very wealthy get more of the pie, the lower paid get less, a wealthy earner can afford their energy bill doubling, a care worker cannot, even with the subsidy, of which £400 runs out shortly, so it'll be a 2.5x increase.

& no we can't all become high earners.

Envy isn't reserved just for the British. It is an unpleasant human trait across the world. There are people in every country in the world who behave in the same way.

I think it's the class system. There are set structures within the British class system that are still rigidly there.

@Snowberry3 that's a good example of how certain areas of society work to stay within their classes. Large swathes of the MC can no longer afford private schools which were once an easier route to the top jobs, so they've worked around that by paying for tutoring to get into grammar schools which now are often not too dissimilar to many low key private schools in their demographic of students.
In addition to this mc parents have managed to push the prices up in areas of good schools again pricing many people out of these area.

Deconstructing the class system imo can only happen once the royal family goes. How can you get rid of it when you literally have a king at the top of the system.
It's very very difficult for the wc to break through upwards. Their own people don't want them to make it because that's suggesting there's something wrong with being wc, the mc don't want wc working their way up because it makes them less 'superior' and the uc are generally inaccessible to most now and want it to stay that way.

@basilmint I think people would be amazed at what progress could be made with smaller classes.

For pretty random reasons (rural school, tiny population) back in the 70's80's I was taught in classes of 10-15. Dropped down to 6-8 for A levels. Schools might have not been the best funded but the opportunity to learn was tremendous.

What's the problem? The schools exist. If they don't want to pay tax like everyone else the Government takes over.

I think you have a point OP.

There is some valid and genuine anger about widening inequality in this country at the moment. Many people are justifiably angry with the fact that poverty has increased hugely and at the depletion of opportunities for people from more modest backgrounds to advance themselves.

But I think there is an undertone of envy too which can be quite ugly sometimes.

Where Americans will see a wealthy person and think: “Well done to them, I could be like that,” a British person tends to think: “Why should he/she have that if I don’t?” I don’t think America is an example of a healthy society at the moment by any means but there is a sense of optimism and a respectful attitude to success there which is lacking in Britain. We tend to want to pull everyone down to our level as opposed to pulling ourselves up to theirs.

I think it’s probably rooted in the British class system and a sense that people being “above their station” is improper.

The OP asked about England and people are answering about “Britain” and “the UK”. They’re not the same thing.

Excellent post

I also think people make life more difficult for themselves than it need be

Don’t underestimate the power of inverted snobbery. The class system isn’t unique to the UK, though other countries are better at falsely pretending it doesn’t exist. But the British are particularly good at weaponising it to make the common folk feel better about themselves.

You sound lovely and probably exactly who OP is talking about. If you want to get some where in life you make it happen regardless if you are off a council estate or not.

I know, I've done it.

I've never felt envy in my life.. am perfectly happy with my lot. :-)
(Not privileged, just content.)

Because a large chunk of the middle and working class have been conditioned to believe that ARE the better off or that they have a chance of becoming one of the elite.

That's why you constantly see people objecting when tax increases for the the wealthy are mentioned. The mistakenly believe that either they are the target or could one do be the target. All the while the truly wealthy sit in their ivory towers laughing at the plebs fighting for scraps.