Aibu to be pissed off that vegetables and nuts aren't vegan?

[autyspauty]

I was watching a clip from QI where they said that avocados and other fruits and vegetables and nits aren't actually vegan because Bees are boxed up and sent to the farms/ orchards etc to pollinate the crops.

I can't believe it.

I'm not even vegan but I do my best to be as eco conscious as I can and there are just so many ways that even a peice of fruit is ladder with tonnes of CO2. Not only do I have to consider the moles my food has travelled to get to the warehouse/ factory to be transported to be packaged and then transported to the shops, but now I have to think about BEES being transported in lorries to pollinate the food before its even fucking grown?

You can't avoid plastic packaging on your food, you can't avoid air miles or road miles on your food but I didn't even think about the fucking road miles on the pollinators to pollinate the food.

There is a photo doing the rounds of a fruit cup picked in Thailand, packed in Venezuela and then shipped to US. Its a joke, the fruit in that cup has travelled more miles than most of the people buying it but you wouldn't even guess about the fucking Bees being shipped over to pollinate in the first place. (countries may be wrong but you get the ideA)

I think its a big thing in the US because of miles and miles of mono crops. I saw a programme about it but cant remember the full details.

Welcome to late stage capitalism.

Basically nothing is without its ethical dilemmas.

But you can start by eating mostly local produce. Nobody needs to eat a fucking "fruit cup" that's travelled most of the way round the globe! Just buy an apple from the farm shop...

If you get to that level nothing is actually vegan. I mean animals died to make the oil for the transport so… 🤷‍♀️ You have to draw a line somewhere and decide what you’re comfortable with.

Yes. I watched a documentary about soil erosion and some people believe we only have a few years (50-100) of workable soil left.

There has been a massive outcry for forrest gardening, no dig etc, that small scale market gardens and allotment guys and garden veg patch gals are shouting about and I just can't see why these big farms can't change their ways?! Even planting hedgerows in between fields of native bushes, trees and plants boosts the local eco system. that means more pollinators. That means better fucking pest mitigation and pollinate.

Elimination, a lack of education-
Big mama

bees being transported is a separate environmental issue

but I dont see why you think bees pollinating plants mean that they are not vegan.
Bees do their thing and in the process transfer pollen. The pollen is from the plant, not the bee. I have loads of bees on my allotment busy doing their bee thing, doesnt mean my veggies arent vegan

Good Lord - is this really a distinction that matters? Bees will have rubbed themselves against loads of crops and I hope they continue to for the good of the planet and us all. You are not consuming any part of an animal when you eat a carrot ffs.

I completely agree, I’m not eating the tomatoes in my garden because my cat looked at them….. this is the level you are going to! Bees need plants to survive, if we kept them off of the plants to keep the plants “vegan” then the plants and bees would die.

I think there is a difference between wild bees (and even for me well kept captive bees with fixed hive, but I’m not vegan) and bees who live a horrible stressed existence on the back of a truck being permanently moved around millions of acres of almonds with high rates of attrition. Everyone’s different though.

Nothing doesn’t hurt animals. How easy do you think it is to grow crops without animals and insects trying to eat them?
you have to clear fields (of animals) you have to keep fields clear (of animals) before you get to the transporting etc.

why vegans don’t mind moles, toads, birds, slugs, foxes etc being killed to facilitate crops is a bit of an unaddressed question.

totally fine if you just don’t want to eat animals or animal products but let’s not pretend veganism is without its cruelty. Because it is. Unfortunate but true.

No food unless you have grown it yourself is vegan. It’s fertilised with animal manure and blood and fish bone, animals are culled in huge numbers to protect crops, animals are used in rotation grazing stubble crops and leys to restore nutrients to arable crops and combat disease/pest build up.

That's just QI wanting to have a clever fact that will surprise people- I don't think any vegans avoid insect-pollinated crops.

You could say the miles and miles of monoculture in the USA are technically not vegan because (unlike Teds allotment) farmers are actively using the bees' labour. They transport the hives to each crops as it comes into season. So say when almond trees are blooming, the bees will be taken there- and the fields are so big that they can't reach any other plants, so have a diet of only almond nectar & pollen. Then they are moved to *maize fields, and again can only eat maize nectar & pollen. And so on through the year.
This is bad for the bees. The stress of being moved around all the times, the poorer nutrition, exposure to more diseases etc makes them more vulnerable to Colony Collapse Disorder. (Which is worrying for all of us humans, as we depend on bees for so many foods!)

Many vegans might campaign for more sustainable farming practices, and might choose to generally buy certain fruit / veg from smaller farmers.
But no one should say that having a bit of almond milk in your tea makes someone not vegan.

*example only! But they are trucked around to different crops in turn.

You can eat mostly local produce though, and buy fruit from Europe. Bees are part of the natural fertilisation process anyway.

There’s much to be concerned about in industrial farming but not sure the vegan or not status of avocados is it.

What you're objecting to is the extra food miles from transporting the bees and the deliberate exploitation of the bees, I assume. I know vegans won't eat honey. If we stopped eating plants that have been pollinated by animals, we'd all starve.

I am an omnivore, although I do try not to eat much meat and fish. One of the reasons I knew decades ago I could never be a vegetarian (never mind a vegan) was reading a Vegetarian Society leaflet about foods and other products you'd have to eliminate if you became a vegetarian. One was malt whisky, which mystified me, but it was explained that whisky is matured in sherry or port casks, and some sherry/port producers filter their product using gelatin. Far too many what ifs for me there.

Whatever you do, don't look up how figs are pollinated ...

Just wait til you find out about the ant - aphid - ladybird relationship.

The wasps make them extra tasty 😁

The most ethical diet - environmentally - is a locally-produced one. Whether or not you want to make that vegan or omnivore or somewhere in between is an individual choice, but buying stuff grown near where you live, or in your county or region or country (the uk) generally means higher welfare standards, reduced or no pesticide or hormone use, and no air miles. Eat seasonally and you’ll be doing even better.

You really don't want to know what happens to any unfortunate animals present when a combine harvester goes through a field...

I've said yanbu as I didnt know this fact. I also try to reduce food miles and eat seasonal and local but I don't succeed. I think it's impossible. But I sympathise with your ethical dilemma, I really do.

If you come up with a solution please open a new thread as I'd love to read about that too

1. Open and consume your 100% recyclable pack of plant-based sausages.
2. Recycle the packaging.
3. Binmen collect the recycling, but the packaging accidentally falls out of the recycling bag.
4. Packaging blows into a hedge, decapitating a squirrel along the way.
5. Packaging frees itself from the hedge, and blows all the way to the river, where a trout chokes on a piece of it, and dies.

After you've chucked the packaging into the recycling bag, it's unlikely you'll consider the vegan-ness of it all!!!!😆

Realistically every plant we eat that is farmed and every item we buy needs the exploitation of animal and insects in order to work.

most crops are monocultures and the herbicides and pesticides lead to soil degradation and is a major reason we have insects disappearing at an alarming rate and as a result the rest of the ecosystem is failing.

if we don’t use natural fertilisers - seaweed, fish blood and bone, manure (again need animals) - we have to rely on petrochemicals, mining and natural gas to produce synthetic fertilisers which destroys our environment.

I would rather opt for the natural and local as possible than the synthetic.

I happily use leather but I don’t overconsume leather. I have a pair of dr martens I’ve had for nearly a decade that are well loved and cherished and have been resoled. I’ve gone through at least 6-7 pairs of synthetic trainers in that time that are an ecological nightmare from production to disposal and I’m trying to choose better - canvas style pumps with rubber soles over foam and plastic moulded trainers with synthetic mix uppers.

my handbags (three in total) and belts are all leather and regularly treated with a beeswax balm. Why? Because a lot of the synthetic style waterproofs contain long lasting chemical components that will never degrade. Teflon being a good example.

I avoid synthetic clothing and opt for cotton, wool, linen and hemp.

wool is harvested from animals (sheep, goats, rabbits, yak etc) so again an animal is farmed to make items for me to wear but my clothes are so much easier to repair, to reuse and at the end of their life usually when they’ve become rags for cleaning I can shred them and compost them.
acrylic clothing constantly sheds micro plastics and has to go to landfill. It is just plastic. Granted it’s hard to avoid it completely.

veganism, imo, is a well meaning lifestyle choice but I don’t believe it’s sustainable or as environmentally friendly as people claim.

opting for multiple days of veg only eating with several meals of meat and dairy with practical consumption of leather and other animal based products and not the excessive consumption is the way forward.

You can only do so much, I truly do not think it’s possible to be 100% vegan and live a realistic life. I would consider myself plant based after trying to live vegan for quite a while, but various medications, alcohol, toiletries etc can be non-vegan and even if you say buy all vegan toiletries, am I going to not wash my hands at someone else’s house because their soap isn’t vegan? Will I sit on my friends leather sofa? Yes.

Eco anxiety is difficult, I do my very best but I don’t worry now as all I can do is my best, I shop local / organic / vegan where I’m able to and recycle and upcycle as much as possible. Whilst there are people boarding private jets for 30 minute trips, I’m not going to guilt trip myself about anything.

Bees are commonly transported around. Hives get moved around to places where they collect pollen and fertilise the plants.

The definition I use for veganism:

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment.”

So where possible I exclude cruelty and exploitation of animals in my lifestyle choices.
Its not always possible to exclude it (car manufacturing, some agricultural processes etc) but I’m simply doing my best and research a lot. It’s not about perfection: that’s impossible.

Being vegan is impossible - does anyone really expect their KFC vegan drumstick or whatever to be truly vegan if you go to a shop that actively sells meat as its main product. No. Pretty much everything we eat has insects. When I go into a restaurant I can't control if someone uses the meat tongs on my veggie burger, I just have to accept that as a possibility. If you truly want to be vegan - grow your own, wrestle with the dilemma of allowing insects to work for you or keep them out and keep them away from sharing your food. Either way, your presence on earth is detrimental to animal life and the health of this planet. Somewhere along the line, you just have to be ok with that and do your best to reduce the impact. Make choices that work for you and the environment but there's no way of being a 100% vegan.