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Original poster

To think a lot of women are worse off than 50 years ago?

944 replies

Tsort · 24/09/2022 23:53

A certain type of person is nostalgic for the old days when ‘men were men, and women were women’. I am not. However, it must be noted that at the time when women were expected to be docile acquiescent homemakers, men were expected to foot the bill. They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon. Not for me, but a fair division of labour.

Now, we have a generation of women who ‘pay their way’, go Dutch and refuse to let men pay for them as they don’t want to be indebted. Grand.

But, these same women also do the lion’s share of housework, because ‘men don’t see it’ and shoulder the emotional labour because ‘that’s just the way men are’.

So, women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place. How is this an improvement for women? And why do so many tolerate it? This is a profound misunderstanding of feminism and it hurts so many of us.

OP posts:
Brefugee · 25/09/2022 10:14

Think about the use of tranquillisers by housewives in the fifties

i hate to break it to you - the 50s was 70 years ago. We're talking about the 70s.

And yes, in many respects i agree with OP, in many ways women are worse off than 50 years ago. But at least we can get our own mortgages and credit cards now

TinaPoopsy52 · 25/09/2022 10:14

bob78 · 25/09/2022 10:08

@TinaPoopsy52 you do realise you're the "old women" in the story you've just told, you're the woman from a previous generation telling the younger generation your era was better.

@bob78

No, I’m saying it was better for some, not for others. I’m saying it was different not better, but also that today isn’t better.
Its those insisting that their era (especially if it’s alll they’ve known) is the right one (whether it’s past or present) who are naive.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 25/09/2022 10:15

TinaPoopsy52 · 25/09/2022 10:13

@BudgetBlast

And yet it was the experience of myself and many (majority) of women I knew. I respect your mothers experience, but don’t tell me what it was or wasn’t like for women on the whole, I was there, I certainly know more of it than you.

I was there as well. Glad you enjoyed it, though. I certainly wouldn't swap what we have now, deeply imperfect as it is, for being a woman in the 1970s. But then I'm one of 'those feminist types,' I would say that.

Original poster
Tsort · 25/09/2022 10:15

runwalk · 25/09/2022 07:46

I think you raise an interesting question OP and I often read threads on here and wonder the same. Having said this, I was not around in the 1950s, so it's impossible to draw a direct comparison.

I think a big source of unhappiness and even illness for women these days is that modern life means they have to work full-time when children come along. Great if they want to (and many do). But you only have to read threads on here now to see that many really struggle with putting their children in childcare full time (or even at all).

Some women seem to expect very little of men these days. They think being married to a man who earns more than them but wants separate finances is great (!) - some even are conditioned to see this as 'independence.'

If a man does the laundry and actually interacts with his kids, women hail him as a "50/50 dad" and this seems to be the ultimate accolade on MN. But often 50/50 is, in reality, more like 30/70 (the 70% falling to the woman). Do, in realty, she is left with a so-called 'new msn' who is quite happy to plod along in his career because 'equality' now dictates she should also want to work full time and earn the same or perhaps more then him. The problem is that men know that women, working or not, will still take on the majority of child-related "headspace" because they just do that naturally. So for women, "having it all' would be more accurately described as largely "doing it all" but being told this is equality and what they wanted. So they can't complain and are splitting themselves in two - permanently guilty and trying to convince themselves they have a great deal. You can see this blatantly from certain threads on here right now.

I agree with all this.

OP posts:
bob78 · 25/09/2022 10:16

@mamabear715 you don't think it's rose tinted specs to look back and disregard domestic violence because you weren't aware it existed. Yes let's go back to the 1970s and pretend it didn't exist, or that the environment doesn't matter to make life better for those like you Confused my generation gets a lot of slack, a lot of words like woke and snowflake, but I'm so glad empathy is slowly developing in society, even if it means we can't ignorantly pretend issues don't exist.

Topgub · 25/09/2022 10:17

@mamabear715

The 70s?

The era of the 3 day week,black outs, strikes winter of discontent etc?

Yeah.

Sounds idyllic

keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth · 25/09/2022 10:18

Tsort · 25/09/2022 00:11

I can even (kinda, not really) understand giving up work. It’s the women who don’t give up work, then go home and do ALL the housework, then arrange everything and do all the ‘wifework’, and then raise their kids pretty much single-handedly…all while being married to some utterly useless piece of shit who does fuck all. It’s them
that I don't get.

Show quote history

Yeah absolutely fuck that for a game of soldiers. I'll gladly keep this home nice and cook which I enjoy, spend all the time I can with the kids, pets, lounge around aimlessly (although I'm actually partial to writing plays) do a bit of nice work from home for fun money, and absolve myself of all financial responsibility.

I worked full-time from a young age and never truly enjoyed the grind. I'm am happy to have a man provide for me and he loves doing it so we are all good.

If women enjoy being at work that's lovely but I've found when a thread comes along asking what you would love to do it's invariably "nothing and stay home or volunteer instead of work" but a thread like this and it's suddenly "I love my job I love my job"

Original poster
Tsort · 25/09/2022 10:18

vivainsomnia · 25/09/2022 07:50

I worked with a majority of men, who have working wives, and they certainly do their share of housework and childcare. My friend's husbands also do their part.
My OH does more housework than me, quite significantly.

It's only on mn that I hear about all those lazy husbands who do next to nothing. Maybe because the women with husbands who do their share have no reason to come and moan on mn?

Great if all these men are pulling their weight (although I’d question how you’d know re the men you work with), but that’s simply not the statistical norm. Women do far more housework, in all family setups, the majority of the time.

OP posts:
bob78 · 25/09/2022 10:19

@TinaPoopsy52 define better, you and I will not have the same definition of better. But if we are talking respect, equality, independence, autonomy, the 2020s are much better than 1970, it is not perfect (we do not have equality), we still have a long way to go, but the fact some women muddled along ignorantly happy in the 1970s does not stop the fact most women were more limited then than most women today.

EgonsShell · 25/09/2022 10:20

mamabear715 · 25/09/2022 10:12

Hmm, not sure how posters can talk about housewives in the 70's unless they were THERE..
Yep, I had a twin tub washing machine - a Hoover Washdog, lol, if you're interested.. it was the bees knees! I had two children under two, both in (terry) nappies. The nappies were sparkling on the washing line at 6.30am every day. I made stews, shepherd's pie & hash & milk puddings in the oven. Life was good!

We had a car, & could take the kids places easily.
My DH at the time worked set hours - he was in for 5.15pm and when he was done, he was done. The night was our own. No computers, no phone, no stressing about the next day at work.
He would go to the match at the weekend. I would meet up with friends for a coffee in the daytimes. We'd have a night out now & again.

No-one worried about the state of the planet because no-one really thought about it, deep pits were still open at that time, & no-one foresaw Mrs Thatcher getting rid of them - coal was king!

I was never aware of domestic violence at that time - not that it would have had a title. I'm not so naive as to think it never went on, but the people I knew - no.

I never worried about switching anything electrical on, we could always pay our bills, no direct debit then, I'd get a bus into town & pay bills at the town hall or the electricity / gas board buildings. No mistakes, just paid in cash, the bill was stamped paid, & off I'd go.

Everything was EASY. Nothing to get stressed about.
As far as womens' rights or whatever, I've always believed in PERSONAL rights, man or woman. Never burned my bra (God no, I NEEDED my Gossard Wonderbra) just quietly got on with life & didn't let anyone grind me down.

Rose tinted specs? Well, I'm TRYING to think of downsides - but I really can't. Am sure I'll get flamed or whatever though.. but i hope not.

Can't work out if this is a joke or not, although suspect it is.

Nevertheless, as per usual, threads like this completely fail to take class into account.

bob78 · 25/09/2022 10:20

If women enjoy being at work that's lovely but I've found when a thread comes along asking what you would love to do it's invariably "nothing and stay home or volunteer instead of work" but a thread like this and it's suddenly "I love my job I love my job"

It's the same posters is it?

TinaPoopsy52 · 25/09/2022 10:21

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 25/09/2022 10:10

Pretty strong words considering you’ve never actually lived in those other times. Imo some things were better some worse

But then you've not lived in those 'other times' either. Care to tell us when those times were when it was better for women than now? as for your example of 'old women,' people will always think things are changing for the worse and want to go back to the old ways. @Rosehugger 's point is that she doesn't want to, she prefers what she has now.

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain

I did. I was literally a housewife and mum in the 70’s. I think they were better in many ways than now. They were better family wise imo. Couples who could be happy that way were happier with a division of labour rather than expectation of both partners doing everything combined.

My point was if you lived in that time and preferred today to that is totally valid, however if your too young to have lived it and just going off the stereotype off “housewife’s we’re all drugged up bozos who really wanted to run companies etc” then you have swallowed a lie and really have no idea what your talking about.

Its fine to want what you want, but I’m a real person who was happy then as were many many other women. It’s the minority who pushed change, don’t forget that.

I don’t see closing some meaningless pay gap by forcing women back into the workforce full time as making things “better”.

Shortname · 25/09/2022 10:22

Manekinek0 · 25/09/2022 00:34

My DH does more than his fair share but both of us are knackered most of the time. Homemaking used to be a full time job. I get we now have mod-cons that save time but it's still time consuming. In an ideal world we would share the household chores and be able to both work part time and still have the standard of living that we have now.

Actually I thought this was a really good point and very relevant, not sure why OP was so dismissive, what @manekinek0 describes is what I think of as actually equality in the household. Reminds me of the quote about how the 40hr working week was designed for a world where someone else did all childcare and household tasks. But here we are 2 parents both working full time, sharing household tasks equally, both exhausted.

keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth · 25/09/2022 10:22

Manekinek0 · 25/09/2022 00:34

My DH does more than his fair share but both of us are knackered most of the time. Homemaking used to be a full time job. I get we now have mod-cons that save time but it's still time consuming. In an ideal world we would share the household chores and be able to both work part time and still have the standard of living that we have now.

It's still a full-time job. I could easily do it all day every day but I like downtime so things go amiss and we only have two children. Laundry is constant, three fresh healthy meals a day is constant. But both are important, especially freshly cooked food, it's the cornerstone of health, and screw always being tired. No thank you. Neither of us are because we both only have one side of things to take care of House/Bringing in the money.

Financial independence, lovely, but if the cost is toxic stress and fatigued that ruins your mental and physical health then is it really worth it?

I'm married, what would really happen if he did decide to chuck me? I'd still be entitled to my home, I'd be employable because of my background. I'd never go back to full-time work, I'm basically retired. It's great.

This narrative of anti-traditionalism hasn't really benefited women at all.

ingenvillvetavardukoptdintroja · 25/09/2022 10:23

Can we blame men for being useless, not women for choosing badly? Quite often things change after first baby, by which time you're committed. Also not all of us have our pick of men......

Topgub · 25/09/2022 10:23

@TinaPoopsy52

You think ensuring women are paid the same as men is meaningless?

And that women are 'forced' to work?

ivykaty44 · 25/09/2022 10:23

50 years ago a man wouldn’t have been pandered to going into a female changing area. Men are finding other ways to screw over woman.

keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth · 25/09/2022 10:24

bob78 · 25/09/2022 10:20

If women enjoy being at work that's lovely but I've found when a thread comes along asking what you would love to do it's invariably "nothing and stay home or volunteer instead of work" but a thread like this and it's suddenly "I love my job I love my job"

It's the same posters is it?

I'd bet my left leg it often is, yes. You want to maintain it's not, lovely.

Hyacinth2 · 25/09/2022 10:24

Tsort · 24/09/2022 23:53

A certain type of person is nostalgic for the old days when ‘men were men, and women were women’. I am not. However, it must be noted that at the time when women were expected to be docile acquiescent homemakers, men were expected to foot the bill. They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon. Not for me, but a fair division of labour.

Now, we have a generation of women who ‘pay their way’, go Dutch and refuse to let men pay for them as they don’t want to be indebted. Grand.

But, these same women also do the lion’s share of housework, because ‘men don’t see it’ and shoulder the emotional labour because ‘that’s just the way men are’.

So, women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place. How is this an improvement for women? And why do so many tolerate it? This is a profound misunderstanding of feminism and it hurts so many of us.

But they aren't accepting it - hence the fall in the rate of marriage and the number of DCs.

bob78 · 25/09/2022 10:26

@TinaPoopsy52 but you can't do a fair comparison individually either, because as much as we haven't lived as young women in the 1970s, you aren't a young woman with a young family in the 2020s. We are both making assumptions from what we see and hear but not experienced, but statistics and legislation are more universal.

itrytomakemyway · 25/09/2022 10:27

"meaningless pay gap". You lost your argument right there.

Topgub · 25/09/2022 10:27

@keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth

How does traditionalism benefit women?

KweenieBeanz · 25/09/2022 10:27

I personally think a big problem is the disparity between the standard of housework that women find acceptable, and what men find acceptable. An awfully large number of women complain that they do 90% of household chores but 50% is tasks that only they actually feel need doing. So they are washing towels every other day, stripping and changing bed linens twice weekly, putting the children in clean pyjamas every night, daily freshly laundered clothes, hoovering daily. Their partners would be perfectly happy to wash the towels once a week, change the bed once a fortnight. Wear clothes a second time. So that's what they do. It simply isn't necessary to be living in a sterile environment all the time, and a lot of women create unnecessary housework by setting artificial 'high standards' which they then hold the whole family accountable too, and martyr themselves trying to work plus do all this.
I'm sure people will say it's just men being lazy, and I'm sure in some cases it is, but in LOTS of cases it's simply men and women having different standards.

bob78 · 25/09/2022 10:27

@keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth haha sure ok Confused but if you'd bet your leg, it must be true. Not your own bias persuading you to think that at all....

mamabear715 · 25/09/2022 10:28

@EgonsShell
What the FECK has class got to do with anything, pray? Do let me know what 'class' you think I was / am!