To think a lot of women are worse off than 50 years ago?

[Tsort]

A certain type of person is nostalgic for the old days when ‘men were men, and women were women’. I am not. However, it must be noted that at the time when women were expected to be docile acquiescent homemakers, men were expected to foot the bill. They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon. Not for me, but a fair division of labour.

Now, we have a generation of women who ‘pay their way’, go Dutch and refuse to let men pay for them as they don’t want to be indebted. Grand.

But, these same women also do the lion’s share of housework, because ‘men don’t see it’ and shoulder the emotional labour because ‘that’s just the way men are’.

So, women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place. How is this an improvement for women? And why do so many tolerate it? This is a profound misunderstanding of feminism and it hurts so many of us.

IKWYM, I'm in an equal relationship. We share chores, responsibilities and earn about the same. We've each been the breadwinner at times but our home responsibilities have been shared fairly.
My best friend however when I met her was the breadwinner working long days, commuting for hours, looked after the baby 100% when she was home, did all the house chores. Her DH was "busy" trying to set up a business but did fuck all at home. She's now married to a better man who respects her and does more than his fair share at home and she can't believe her luck. It's not luck to not put up with the shit she used to.

I think women are increasingly forcing the hand of men to raise their game - and that’s because it’s easier than ever to walk away from cocklodgers. Of all the divorced couples I know who are the same age as me, the women got fed up with doing it all - bringing home the bacon, all the childcare, housework and mental load. So they divorced and are now in a much better place.

There was a statistic the other day saying that more women were single because men were so shite. It can go either way - men up their game or we get the incel movement…

My grandma was stuck in a violent abusive marriage

My dad hated how his father was and as part of his reaction to that brought me up to be self supporting

If I chose to tie myself to a loser that's my choice. A choice grandma never had

Good post

In the early 70, life was probably very pleasant if you were happily married with children, and enjoyed being a SAHM with a husband who earned enough to sustain a reasonably comfortable lifestyle. But for many, it wasn't like that

OTOH, I see OP's point that it's unfair for modern women to work full time AND do the lion's share of household tasks. I expect it will become more fair with time, as younger women will hopefully expect / demand their partners do more at home

Although I respect the right of every family to do what suits them, I think the SAHM model holds us back from progressing this.

In the UK a woman is killed by a man every three days.

As an aside, I wonder how this figure compares to the statistics from, say, sixty years ago.

@midgetastic I'm sorry about your grandmother's experience, and your father gave wise advice to be financially self sufficient as it does give you more options

But.... no one "chooses" to experience domestic abuse. Perpetrarors are highly skilled at choosing their victims, manipulating them etc

With rose-tinted glasses, I would like mothers to be able to afford to stay home and look after their DCs if they want to and go back to work when they are ready. It used to be the case that the average man earnt enough to pay the rent or mortgage and the bills.

However, people want more now - just more stuff and it costs a lot more to live. Houses cost more because they are built to higher standards, we expect double glazing, central heating, cars, holidays, computers and mobile phones. Back in the 50s and 60s not many people had those. It costs much more to have the average standard of living.

Men are better at helping with DCs and housework but not all do their fair share. I don't think many take on their share of the stress of being the mother and taking on responsibility for family life. At the end of the day it is still usually the mother that panics and drops everything when childcare fails or the school calls.

I totally agree OP.

Ok OP here’s another one for you - I have a family member who fell pregnant when she was 17 (almost exactly 50 years ago) and her parents were so furious they sent her away to an unmarried mother and baby home because she’d brought such shame on the family.

Imagine that level of misogyny and shaming being entirely mainstream - thank god those places closed (of course those places continued to run in Ireland for a lot longer tragically).

Also the Equal Pay Act was passed in 1971 but only became came into force in 1975, the same day as the Sex Discrimination Act. The average gap in earnings was north of 35% in 1971. commonslibrary.parliament.uk/50-years-of-the-equal-pay-act/

Is it good enough today? No of course not. But they are important developments that mean that all women are better off than 50 years ago, regardless of whether they have lazy husbands or not.

I think that women carry the 'mental load' in the vast majority of households, with an increasing number having a split of responsibilities closer to (but still not) 50/50 but still a large number doing nearer to 100%.

Personally I'm in the closer to 50/50 camp but I'll admit I do more. But I would much rather have both a job and the majority of home responsibilities than be a SAHM with a bit more time to do it. I just wouldn't want to be a SAHM.

The downside of both people working is that it ultimately leads to 2 people needing to work in most families to buy houses etc.

I agree to some extent. But appreciate all the arguments against.

I think a lot of men now exist as sperm donors. The women have their own homes either self or state funded. They either work or claim benefits as single mothers but do not rely on men financially. Back in my mum's day, men were expected to work like dogs and provide for their wives and kids.

Round here, they just smoke weed and cocklodge.

**Not all men obvs but a significant number.

You're totally right, OP. It's not that lots of things haven't improved. It's not that women haven't achieved some measure of equality. It's that so many women still end up being default parent and default domestic chore doer regardless of the split of wages and/or working hours (not that the sharing of the domestic load should have anything to do with relative wages).

It's easy to say 'Well women shouldn't tolerate it', but firstly it's not so easy to just dismantle the way people are socialised into these roles and secondly the real attitude of a male partner towards equal sharing of the load often isn't apparent until the couple have had a baby. Yes, women should be more choosy (the Relationships board is massive evidence of that), but blaming women for men's failure to step up is hardly fair.

I don't think that life with a man has improved all that much.

Covid shown a bright light on it when women were the ones who were quitting their jobs and scaling back because their husband just wouldn't.

Women have more responsibilities to carry. They are still the carers, do most of the wifework, childcare, housework, take the hit in pay, pension and career when they have children.

Men get the same benefits of marriage as they always had plus more likely to work in an AC office than in manual labor. plus have their spouse pay for half of everything.

My DP does his own "life admin", an equal share of the house work, buys his own clothes and gives his input on any decisions we make about big purchases, holidays etc....want to know why? because from the outset of him moving in I told him I was NOT his mother and I was not going to act like one. If he gets something wrong then it's his problem to deal with, not mine. Likewise with exH, DD was his child as well as mine and so I expected him to change her/feed her/play with her when he was home. If he put her in clothes that I wouldn't have then so what, no big deal.
All of the above is exactly how it was in my parents marriage as well, the difference is I was never seen by ExMiL and DP's late mother as being a nag or belittling them, which is how my DDad's parents saw my mum. They saw her as a "bad wife and neglectful mother"

I could not agree more with you. I'm one of those women and running myself into an early grave.

It's the lie we've been sold to pay more towards taxation. SAHP are not economically beneficial to the government, so we've now all bought into the BS fairy tale that we can have it all. Whilst we suffer. Divorce rates go up, because men just aren't doing 50:50 in most cases. I think one day it might be better, maybe when the boys who's fathers actually contribute 50:50 to everything in the family. When those boys grow up, maybe things will be different.

At the moment, I would say the majority of women actually suffer because of this.

a close friend who still have very traditional roles in the family ( whilst the kids are small at least ), came to visit and noticed that everyone was so stressed and exhausted. The men and the women. I don't think it benefits anyone really. At least before the children go to school, it wouldn't be so terrible for women who want to OR men who want to, to stay at home with them a bit more, rather than running straight back to work when their babies are tiny.

OP I agree with you. For some kinds of women things are harder, for some they are easier. Now this forum is mainly populated with the latter which is why your getting run down but your right. I’ve been a housewife and am old enough to remember women from an even older era and I’d say many were as happy as now, perhaps more happy on average.

Also it’s a myth that most housewives were on tranquillisers to cope. A myth made up by those who want to disparage that time as a joke. Some were, most weren’t. But then many women are medicated today as well. Some people probably need that no matter what situation they are in due to chemical imbalance and a tendency to depression.

The simple truth that most women here won’t acknowledge is that most people are happy following the course that society lays out for them. Most men and women were perfectly happy to settle into their gendered roles and live out their lives that way, because it was what society told them was right and so when they fulfilled it they felt like they had a purpose and on some small level had succeeded. The successful housewife is no different in this than the successful “empowered” woman who does some career that isn’t really a passion for her but fulfills her because it makes her feel a success at life.

Many young women who didn’t fit the traditional mould back then were lost and confused - but today I see many young women who aren’t career women, are more sensitive who probably would have been happier back then being wives and mothers when that career path wasn’t expected of them and they didn’t feel stupid for not doing it who have mental problems and so on and I think it’s a shame.

I’m old enough to remember when (and have been a part of it ) most women didn’t really work unless they had to, but also young enough that I’ve lived my whole life when it wasn’t impossible that they should. Guess what? During my time old women would tell me how bad all this women working and so on was (according to them) and how it would ruin things. Now we can laugh that off but clearly those women were happy in their own time, just as I was happy 40 and 50 years ago as well when women did work but it wasn’t an expectation.

Dont forget - it wasn’t a majority of women who pushed things they way they are now, it was a minority. The majority didn’t care and were happy to go along (same as goes for most things). Most women today I really believe would be just as happy back 50 years ago (different types happier different types less so).
With that in mind as easy as it is for those on this forum to scoff and say things are better now if you were alive then would you still say the same? Many don’t. I don’t. It’s hubris and ego that they think there time is so much better.

The one way in which things are better is domestic violence is less accepted and easier to get away from (but no it was never praised or encouraged even then - it’s was only ever looked down on as cruel and wrong). But I don’t think we had to ruin everything else just to work on that.

I don’t care what anyone says, I really believe women and men and naturally different and meant for different things and acting different will lead to ruin in the long term.

I agree the division of labour is not balanced in most (hetro) relationships and domestic violence are still significant issues which need addressing. My DH has done more since permanently WFH but I still do the vast majority of the mental load.

I think the problem is also wider than this. The lack of 'village' after having children, increasing cost of living/housing and wage stagnation contribute to a more stressful parenting situation.

Most jobs squeeze every penny and more out of you. I have lots of friends who are nurses and teachers ( tradionally female dominated professions) and the expectation and work life balance has changed hugely in the past 20 years. They come home stressed and overworked.

It feels like this country has been run down the government over years and we are now reaping the rewards.

@bottlesfed

I agree with your post. I think to the point of men doing more at home, Regardless of who does the money work and who does the home work, I just think it’s way way easier and less stressful to have a division of labour there. Rather than always stepping on each other’s toes trying to do the same role, being unsatisfied without the way the other does things, looking for babysitters and constantly re organising around work and kids.

Maybe some high energy people can do that but it would have put me in an early grave I think. I actually think even if men covered there half of child rearing and domestic duties living like that with no defined roles would still lead to more divorces because it’s bound to lead to conflict and resentment. That doesn’t happen with defined roles.

I don't think things are perfect now, but tbh my blood ran cold at the thought of being back in 1972. I just can't get my head around the fact that it was legal to rape your wife back then.

Regarding the category of women that you are discussing, ie the ones who work plus do the majority of the housework and child rearing. I actually do think things have got better for them.

If we go back to 1972, my MIL worked full time, did 100% of the housework and child rearing. But on top of that, she was regularly beaten black and blue. And NOBODY cared. DH has told me about extended family dinners where her black eyes, broken nose, bruises, just weren't even commented on. Presumably no-one commented at work, or on the bus (because FIL wouldn't let her learn to drive - quite a common thing back then too) either.

I've had MIL crying to me about how she was a bad mother for not leaving him, but the thing is, she couldn't have left him even if she wanted to, because there were no refuges (where we live) at the time.

At least in 2022 she would know that what he was doing to her was not ok and could have got help to leave him.

I think we have so many more choices these days. It's not perfect, but it is better imo.

This is bang on.

“But its a cold hard shock when after being treated as an equal you have your first child to find out that actually most women can't have it all.

Essentially we have been given an extra 10-15 years of illusionary equality than we used to have and we are expected to be fucking grateful for it.”

Usually early child rearing falls more to women, because of physiology (men need to grow working boobs), this teamed with paternity traditionally being two weeks firmly sticks children as predominantly a female role. Then childcare costs are huge, or non existent (at present there is no wrap around childcare that could facilitate me working full time in this town, child minders are full, after school clubs full).

So career choices are really stymied, with some women able to carry on as before, but many taking lower paid and part time jobs so children can be looked after, then the career hugely suffers and then doesn’t recover.

I think the key is that the workplace becomes more family friendly for all, with less of a marked division between the jobs where you’re expected to live and breathe them, and jobs got simply because they fit around family. Only then will you have men and women seeing the domestic arena as being a shared thing.

My husband is a high earner and his job is ridiculously demanding. My career is currently shit, simply because I couldn’t do literally 90% of all home and child stuff as well as a demanding job. I would’ve drowned. Totally aware that it leaves me vulnerable and impressed by women who can multitask and do both roles with ease.

So yes, I get what you’re saying OP. I have one friend who is the main earner, does the vast majority of home stuff too whilst her husband tries to find himself. I think she is the embodiment of all you’re saying. I’m not sure men have caught up in terms of their attitude, the worst scenario is that women literally carry it all like my friend.

Its very hard to get the balance right as well as earn the right amount to get through in these straitened times.

@Elfrazzle

But the “village” after childbirth used to be other non working women, older non working grandparents (but not as old as today because women gave birth earlier) and relatives and maybe some retired men.

The simple truth is if all those people are working the “village” is impossible. It sure can’t be replaced by a childcare facility which has no vested interest in you or your children other than the money they can take from you.

@Strugglingtodomybest

Your “blood ran cold” at the thought of being back in 1972? Really?

I was a young mother and wife in 1972 and was actually very happy and excited to start that life. In spite of all you hear now most men back then weren’t beating their wives black and blue and it wasn’t though of as a good thing to do so either.

And with the rape laws it’s very good they changed, but you have to realise that even today that crime of marital rape would be virtually impossible to convict without evidence - so what’s the real difference? It’s lip service to an unsolvable problem.

I don't think your summary of the "deal" or division of labour in the 50s is accurate. The price that women had to pay for men who were sole earners was complete and total acquiescence, whatever their behaviour. The balance of power in the marriage was totally in the man's favour.

We have a choice now - we can choose to put up with shit behaviour from our partners or we can walk away and - heaven forfend - live on our own. The fact that many women are still choosing to put up with shit behaviour is what makes me sad.

Has this only just occurred to you? Are you living under a rock?

Absolutely not for me. One grandmother was trapped in a marriage she hated but societal pressures made divorce very difficult, she'd have loved a career but was pushed out of working when she had kids, her husband "allowed" her to have a part time shop job when youngest turned 5. On the other end of the spectrum my other grandmother had my dad illegitimately with no support, lived in poverty with huge amounts of judgement.

We have a long way to go yet, but I am so grateful to live my life, not theirs, (some through time, some through my own personal background) to have actively chosen the life I wanted, and to be aspirational, something my grandmothers were never empowered with.