To think a lot of women are worse off than 50 years ago?

[Tsort]

A certain type of person is nostalgic for the old days when ‘men were men, and women were women’. I am not. However, it must be noted that at the time when women were expected to be docile acquiescent homemakers, men were expected to foot the bill. They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon. Not for me, but a fair division of labour.

Now, we have a generation of women who ‘pay their way’, go Dutch and refuse to let men pay for them as they don’t want to be indebted. Grand.

But, these same women also do the lion’s share of housework, because ‘men don’t see it’ and shoulder the emotional labour because ‘that’s just the way men are’.

So, women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place. How is this an improvement for women? And why do so many tolerate it? This is a profound misunderstanding of feminism and it hurts so many of us.

Pre the advent of the contraceptive pill (1969?) women used to face the likelihood of falling pregnant. It's hardly surprising that they predicted that their role would be childrearing and keeping the home environment safe and clean. Because of that vital change, I don't think you can compare the two eras. Factor in the lack of labour saving devices in 1950 and the picture, then, looks less rosy.

It upsets me somewhat when men are critisized on MN for putting all their energies into work. I don't think it is considered enough that they might be scared about losing work and want to try very hard to keep their job - in these uncertain times.

I think experiences vary from couple to couple. If you both work with good salaries, you can pay a cleaner and a gardener to do the bulk of the work at home. The early years are difficult because of the cost of childcare, but get easier if you have one child, or maximum two.

People are living longer, healthily, so, today, the option of grandparents helping is more of a reality. Some grandparents will and some won't , but at least they are living healthily into their old age. I think childcare costs are the worst thing about the modern age.

@Topgub

And as I’ve said - you were the one who snidely said “good your family value you - I guess someone has to”. Don’t act like that was anything other than a catty insult.

Anyway I guess it’s good your family values you and you can split that value with your employer.

But seriously - how much do you think your clients or employees really give a shit about you? They’re not your friends, they won’t care if your not in their lives, they’ll replace you with someone similar.

And in reality it would make little difference if no women did roles like yours (whatever it is) and that’s what you can’t stand.

@keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth

Yeah.

Your denial isn't helping.

The majority of kids who are 'off the rails' have suffered abuse or poverty or both.

I know you feel you need to justify your role but blaming women for kids being off the rails while moaning about put downs is too much irony.

Right well I agree with you and agreed with you before.

@TinaPoopsy52 but you do realise you have come across as entirely triggered by your choice as well in the way you have responded, are you perhaps insecure about your choices? It works both ways. Let's face it, we've all mostly been at this for hours, it's clearly something we are all interested in, we've all heard the negative comments made to both sides, some on this post, we are all defensive and all sick of this discussion. But here I am still...

@TinaPoopsy52

And in reality it would make little difference if no women did roles like yours (whatever it is) and that’s what you can’t stand.

You don't think women can make any difference via their employment?

Jeeze.

No stay at home parent is a risk factor though along with divorce, poverty and abuse per the studies done on juvenile delinquency. It’s not ‘blaming women’ by stating a known risk factor.

@Diverseopinions

People are having kids later though and grandparents may still be working. Through old age or work commitments it’s actually far less likely grandparents will help more.

50 years ago often you would have a 50 something non working grandmother able and wanting to help with kids. It was commonplace. It’s not now.

@Topgub

If you were replaced by a man in your job tomorrow - how would the world be worse for it?
Would anyone other than you even care?

@Discovereads

Its not a risk factor or a positive factor either.

It has no baring. Except obviously increasing the liklihood of poverty

What risk factor do you think was being stated as a fact?

Working?

But seriously - how much do you think your clients or employees really give a shit about you? They’re not your friends, they won’t care if your not in their lives, they’ll replace you with someone similar.

Why are you comparing her clients and colleagues view of her value to your family's value of you, that's not the same thing, it's not comparable. Do you tell your husband is value is less because he's not at home doing the child rearing and house work because he's irreplaceable at work?

@Topgub

Its actually a fact that children with SAHM have better outcomes and happiness (on average) than those from equivalently earning families from equivalent areas with two working parents or single parent families. It can’t be much clearer than that. SAHM are good for children. Doesn’t mean a child can’t succeed without a SAHM but it just means it’s a little less likely.

@TinaPoopsy52

The world would absolutely be worse if only men worked.

Its horrific to think that some women are so mysoginist they literally see women as worthless outside of their scope to be mothers

Pre the advent of the contraceptive pill (1969?) women used to face the likelihood of falling pregnant. It's hardly surprising that they predicted that their role would be childrearing and keeping the home environment safe and clean. Because of that vital change, I don't think you can compare the two eras. Factor in the lack of labour saving devices in 1950 and the picture, then, looks less rosy.

The OP says ‘50 years ago’. Not the sixties, and certainly not the 50’s.

It upsets me somewhat when men are critisized on MN for putting all their energies into work. I don't think it is considered enough that they might be scared about losing work and want to try very hard to keep their job - in these uncertain times.

This post isn’t about men. Some women’s inability to have a conversation about anything without centring men is rather depressing. And don’t you think that women ‘might be scared about losing work and want to try very hard to keep their job - in these uncertain times’? No? Just men, then?

I think experiences vary from couple to couple. If you both work with good salaries, you can pay a cleaner and a gardener to do the bulk of the work at home. The early years are difficult because of the cost of childcare, but get easier if you have one child, or maximum two.

Women, statistically, do considerably more housework, across all demographics, regardless of employment or earnings. These are the stats and they are readily available.

People are living longer, healthily, so, today, the option of grandparents helping is more of a reality. Some grandparents will and some won't , but at least they are living healthily into their old age. I think childcare costs are the worst thing about the modern age.

Nothing to do with this post.

@TinaPoopsy52

Yeah given your inability to accept evidence of scientific research I'm calling bullshit on anything you say is a fact.

Yes I agree. If I’d been a man, I’d probably have been roundly criticised on MN for the amount of time I was working and my DH left with everything else as a SAHD. It’s a lot of pressure to be sole breadwinner and at the same time you are free from guilt in the sense you know your DC are not with a child minder or stuck in an after school club/wrap around care or being passed between relatives homes because they’re at home with a parent. I remember the 2008/9 crash well as it was a time where we were oh shit don’t lose your job Discover.

I don’t think that future generations will have healthy grandparents to depend on. For one, people are having to move away from their families to find secure employment. For two, people are having babies in their 40s quite regularly noe and when those children grow up and have kids when they are 40, their parents will be 80+ and outside the window of realistically being full time childminders to grandchildren.

What you've written makes no sense. No SAHP is a risk factor, what does that mean?

@TinaPoopsy52 and there is also evidence that daughters born to working mothers earn more and sons are more independent. It's much more nuanced than purely work = success/no success. If only parenting was that inevitable and easy!

@bob78

She is the one who brought this all up by making snide comments like “at least your family values you - someone has too”. So I’m pointing out that in reality whatever anyone outside her family thinks of her really amounts to very little in the grand scheme of things. It’s fine if she’s happy in her work - but nobody but her really values her for it.
I wouldn’t say it if she had not tried to get snippy with me only having value to my family (and friends) as though that isn’t true of the vast majority of people.

I was thinking of the ghastly posters going on about short hair manly feminist

Fucking hell. That old trope going the rounds again?

@Topgub

But you specifically - if you the individual didn’t work, what difference would it make to anyone outside your family? None.

No. My mother was in a violent, abusive marriage 50 years ago and had no rights whatsoever. The police didn’t want to know about “domestics”.

But nobody has said that, have they?

@Topgub

like the “scientific” evidence produced of all those female armies or the “scientific” evidence you produced of hormones not affecting men and womens behaviour (or even animals behaviour)?

That wasn’t evidence, it was made up fantasy bs

@Tsort
Women, statistically, do considerably more housework, across all demographics, regardless of employment or earnings. These are the stats and they are readily available.

And men statistically work considerably more hours, across all demographics, regardless of employment or earnings.

I think it is the individual set ups that matter because the statistics don’t tell the whole story.