Page 22 | To think a lot of women are worse off than 50 years ago?

Tsort · 2022-09-24T22:53:42+00:00

A certain type of person is nostalgic for the old days when ‘men were men, and women were women’. I am not. However, it must be noted that at the time when women were expected to be docile acquiescent homemakers, men were expected to foot the bill. They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon. Not for me, but a fair division of labour. Now, we have a generation of women who ‘pay their way’, go Dutch and refuse to let men pay for them as they don’t want to be indebted. Grand. But, these same women *also* do the lion’s share of housework, because ‘men don’t see it’ and shoulder the emotional labour because ‘that’s just the way men are’. So, women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place. How is this an improvement for women? And why do so many tolerate it? This is a profound misunderstanding of feminism and it hurts so many of us.

Charley50 · 25/09/2022 15:45

NRFT, so someone has probably mentioned this already but there is an article in the Sunday Times about life being worse for girls today than 50 years ago.

bob78 · 25/09/2022 15:45

Sure, but you also get those for working wives so what point would it prove? that if you look at those threads the ones who don't work are usually screwed over much more, little to no pension, need to find work, need to find accommodation that will likely be a downgrade.

MsPincher · 25/09/2022 15:45

Ameadowwalk · 25/09/2022 15:34

I think it is fairly uncontroversial to note that men and women still use (or have to use) time very differently - that men (on balance at a population level) have more leisure time, less demands on their time from family and care, more time for career advancement.
One could argue that the mistake of feminism was to argue for female advancement along the lines of how male time was spent - so equality as equal pay for equal work, the ability to work unencumbered by childcare, the ability to have sex without the consequences of pregnancy, ability to basically do what men do (does anyone seriously want to argue we should be without these things?)
However, in the 1970s (and before) that was only one half of what has argued for by feminists - antenatal and maternity care, infant welfare and provision, family allowances have been fought for and achieved. There have also been campaigns for ‘wages for housework’ - less successful but those arguments were made in the 1970s.
But were there ever arguments that men should adapt to female patterns of time use, who advocated that? That was left to the few enlightened men to adopt, or for the house to become a battlefield over chores (which wealthier couples side-step by simply buying in (female) help). No-one was arguing that men adopt female patterns of time use because these were devalued and not appreciated. And it is this problem - that men have not adapted to female patterns of time use, and women basically need to fit it all in somehow - which is the crux of the matter. The problem is not that women have sought political, professional and civic equality and their lives were better without that; it is that there has been no collective will by men to take on the roles which took up/take up women’s time in any meaningfully balanced way.

Yip this. Also I am a single mum (as are 25% of households with children). This has a huge impact on womens lives yet we still see so many men not taking equal responsibility for their children.

Original poster

Tsort · 25/09/2022 15:45

VIPNanny · 25/09/2022 14:59

I do not check people’s posting history, I also didn’t assume anything about your personal ethnicity or background, though I am surprised you are a Black African Immigrant so know very well that most women in the world do live in countries that are very much heavily still Patriarchal and fits within the 70’s gender role mold of the era (and even of the pre 70’s) you seem to think make women’s life better, and yet can’t see that those gender roles usually further oppress women in those countries and even talk about domestic abuse without acknowledging that the proportion of domestic abuse in countries with these gender roles as the norm and societally acceptable thing to do are the ones with most feminicides and domestic abuse?

How many women are currently oppressed in countries like Iran, Afghanistan, etc…? How does men being the main earner and holding onto old school values and women looking after the house and kids better their way of life in ways our lifestyle in Europe in 2022 would somehow make it harder on them?

You seem to want to acknowledge the hardships of being a woman doing it all without acknowledging the further hardship of being a woman who can’t do much outside of the house but does it all in the house anyway.

Women in 2022 can work and get help around the house or with their kids, they don’t actually have to do it all, unless they want to. They can delegate those chores if a husband is chosing not to be present or if they are solo, as long as they have access to a job and their own money. They can also chose to only properly clean once a week if they feel like it because there is no expectation that their home should be picture perfect and ready by the time husband come home at the end of the day, they can chose not to cook everyday, they can chose to drop their kids off in PJs looking rough if they want to and will even be relatable. They can chose to leave their abusive husband. They can chose.

Women who truly do it all nowadays in 2022 in countries with a progressive mindset mostly do it all out of choice, not out of societal expectation (as now the societal expectation has shifted to expecting women to not feel like they have to perform and towards self-care), even single moms have a lot more help and tools to make their life easier in 2022 than they did in the 70’s. Yet in countries with a more conservative and “old school” mindset women have very little choice in what they do or don’t do as the onus is that it’s their role to perform and behave a certain way and do certain tasks and having someone else do it for them would be of great shame and the man bringing in money often comes with the expectation that he should be therefore the one ruling the household and thanked adequately for his labor and for providing both by having a faithful obedient wife, coming home to a clean house and nice dinner and usually by having sex whenever the man feels like it. Not least that if women shouldn’t work or should work less, studies become less necessary to the eye of society, why should a woman study if she is not to work (see Afghanistan) as she is to be provided for and in exchange provide for him who provides for her.

So again, why are you not acknowledging the massive issues in countries who still live according to the 70’s and the lifestyle you gauge better if your focus isn’t on a minority of white women living in Europe? As your arguments would only about work for them and not at all for any women belonging to a minority group or already heavily patriarchal country.

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The comment to which I was responding made assumptions as to the demographic on which I was focussing. Unless you’ve had a name change fail, I didn’t say you’d assumed anything.

As to the rest of that nonsense, I’d suggest you read the OP again, then click on ‘see all’ and read the rest of my comments. Then come back and tell me (with direct quotes, please), where I have stated that the 70’s were some glorious time or advocated for the return to more conservative times.

Finally, you might want to get on a plane and leave Europe, if you think that only white women in Western Europe live in the manner (and have the issues described) in the OP. Much of the rest of the world (including Africa and - gasp! - Black women) has moved along, too. ‘But women have it worse in Afghanistan’ isn’t the checkmate you seem to think it is. Your ignorance is grotesque. And racist.

OP posts:

keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth · 25/09/2022 15:46

MsPincher · 25/09/2022 15:36

Who has said anything about “couples being forced into equal amounts of paid work”? That poster’s husband does nothing in the house or with childcare and prohibits her from working outside the home so she can run about after him. Of course that’s an unequal relationship!

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No he does care for our child he's a very hands-on parent. I've not said otherwise.
He doesn't prohibit me, I was paraphrasing another poster. I choose not to work full-time and he allows it. I can't work full-time and cook three meals a day and do all school pick up and drop offs, it's not possible.

You and your ilk like to switch between two narratives:

your poor husband having to financially support your lazy arse

poor you not having a job and having to rely on your husband

TinaPoopsy52 · 25/09/2022 15:47

MsPincher · 25/09/2022 15:38

It’s not a benefit to women as a group to see that they can submit themselves to men.

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@MsPincher

Theyre not submitting themselves to men. They’re choosing (if they want) to do something of great value which gives them satisfaction and happiness. Both the man and woman are equal but different parts of the setup.
Its sad that you have to devalue what so many women have been very happy doing and has given families and kids so much good over the years.
Nobody is forcing you to be a SAHM so why be a hater? It just comes off like your a bitter.

MsPincher · 25/09/2022 15:49

Wouldloveanother · 25/09/2022 15:27

I really resent this feminism guilt tripping by which the only way a woman can ‘be a true feminist’ is to have a career that may well be making her stressed and miserable, just because she can, and to wear unisex clothes and have short hair and refuse to acknowledge the natural differences between the sexes beyond the physical.

Because that isn’t equity. We don’t need to play men at their own game. It isn’t necessary and we won’t win. What we should be looking at is whether women are happy, have options and feel able to take them, feel valued and respected in society regardless of whether they’re a mother or have a career or are single. Whether our healthcare is up to scratch and takes into account our biological differences, whether motherhood is being supported both as SAHMs and in the workplace.

Trying to force us into the ‘man’s mould’ just means we’re playing the game by their standard and their rules. Whereas the two sexes have different needs.

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Lol! Unisex clothing? Short hair? I think you need to educate yourself on feminism and get rid of your sexist stereotypes.

what age are you if you don’t mind me asking?

Original poster

Tsort · 25/09/2022 15:49

Ameadowwalk · 25/09/2022 15:34

I think it is fairly uncontroversial to note that men and women still use (or have to use) time very differently - that men (on balance at a population level) have more leisure time, less demands on their time from family and care, more time for career advancement.
One could argue that the mistake of feminism was to argue for female advancement along the lines of how male time was spent - so equality as equal pay for equal work, the ability to work unencumbered by childcare, the ability to have sex without the consequences of pregnancy, ability to basically do what men do (does anyone seriously want to argue we should be without these things?)
However, in the 1970s (and before) that was only one half of what has argued for by feminists - antenatal and maternity care, infant welfare and provision, family allowances have been fought for and achieved. There have also been campaigns for ‘wages for housework’ - less successful but those arguments were made in the 1970s.
But were there ever arguments that men should adapt to female patterns of time use, who advocated that? That was left to the few enlightened men to adopt, or for the house to become a battlefield over chores (which wealthier couples side-step by simply buying in (female) help). No-one was arguing that men adopt female patterns of time use because these were devalued and not appreciated. And it is this problem - that men have not adapted to female patterns of time use, and women basically need to fit it all in somehow - which is the crux of the matter. The problem is not that women have sought political, professional and civic equality and their lives were better without that; it is that there has been no collective will by men to take on the roles which took up/take up women’s time in any meaningfully balanced way.

I agree with all of this (apart from it being uncontroversial - this thread shows it is).

OP posts:

keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth · 25/09/2022 15:51

TinaPoopsy52 · 25/09/2022 15:47

@MsPincher

Theyre not submitting themselves to men. They’re choosing (if they want) to do something of great value which gives them satisfaction and happiness. Both the man and woman are equal but different parts of the setup.
Its sad that you have to devalue what so many women have been very happy doing and has given families and kids so much good over the years.
Nobody is forcing you to be a SAHM so why be a hater? It just comes off like your a bitter.

Show quote history

Exactly, the negativity always goes one way.

I guess I'm submitting to using his bank card instead of mine, well, how awful for me.

MsPincher · 25/09/2022 15:53

TinaPoopsy52 · 25/09/2022 15:47

@MsPincher

Theyre not submitting themselves to men. They’re choosing (if they want) to do something of great value which gives them satisfaction and happiness. Both the man and woman are equal but different parts of the setup.
Its sad that you have to devalue what so many women have been very happy doing and has given families and kids so much good over the years.
Nobody is forcing you to be a SAHM so why be a hater? It just comes off like your a bitter.

Show quote history

i think if your husband is deciding that you won’t work and instead run about after him, you absolutely are submitting to him.

women absolutely should be valued as mothers for all that they do. But that is not the same as being a trad wife. I’m a mother. But certainly not a trad wife.

Wouldloveanother · 25/09/2022 15:53

MsPincher · 25/09/2022 15:49

Lol! Unisex clothing? Short hair? I think you need to educate yourself on feminism and get rid of your sexist stereotypes.

what age are you if you don’t mind me asking?

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But you’re the one stereotyping by saying ‘stay at home mums are a bad example for kids’ and insisting that everyone do things the ‘man’s way’. What @Ameadowwalk said is spot on - you’re arguing for women to adapt to the ‘man’s world’ rather than acknowledging women have different needs and we should find compromise and choice for all.

TinaPoopsy52 · 25/09/2022 15:56

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

What your saying isn’t really the truth but kind of modern spin put on womens work. What was regarded as womens work in the home back then or on the farm is really the old fashioned equivalent of what a house wife does today or in the past.
Women have not always worked - for instance you bring up the term spinster as proof women worked when actually it proves the opposite, spinster was the job of unmarried women who had to work for low pay, hence it being used as an insult.

All throughout the Victorian age and well before (think 1700 1600 1500 hundreds most women were in the home especially in cities (not everyone had fields to work). It was only the very poor who had to work jobs which you really didn’t want to do if you could avoid. These women certainly didn’t take pride in their career looking through junk heaps for trinkets to sell for change to keep themselves barely off the streets (if that).

Housewives have always been a thing, even in Ancient Rome, it’s just modern technology has made the role a little easier

bob78 · 25/09/2022 15:58

It was only the very poor who had to work jobs

Which was large swathes of people....not a minority.

Topgub · 25/09/2022 15:58

@TinaPoopsy52

Please don't act like you don't judge women who work.

Its very clear that you do.

There is no value to the role of sahm outside of making the sahm happy and allowing her male oh to prioritise his career

keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth · 25/09/2022 15:59

Topgub · 25/09/2022 15:58

@TinaPoopsy52

Please don't act like you don't judge women who work.

Its very clear that you do.

There is no value to the role of sahm outside of making the sahm happy and allowing her male oh to prioritise his career

You seriously overlook children and their needs like that. This was exactly my point on detached parenting.

MsPincher · 25/09/2022 16:00

keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth · 25/09/2022 15:51

Exactly, the negativity always goes one way.

I guess I'm submitting to using his bank card instead of mine, well, how awful for me.

Show quote history

It’s his bank card though. And he can take it away at anytime. My bank card is all mine. I wouldn’t want to use anymore else’s.

I don’t think it’s all positive from his point of view though. A relationship with an equal is a totally different thing and he is missing out on time with his kids. I loved having my au pair who cooked for us but it wasn’t a spouse relationship or anything like it.

interestingly enough at my work there are roughly two types of men - one married to fellow professionals and one married to women doing more traditionally feminine jobs (primary teachers, secretaries, etc). The latter tend to have much more sexist views and much more unequal relationships.

TinaPoopsy52 · 25/09/2022 16:01

Topgub · 25/09/2022 15:58

@TinaPoopsy52

Please don't act like you don't judge women who work.

Its very clear that you do.

There is no value to the role of sahm outside of making the sahm happy and allowing her male oh to prioritise his career

@Topgub

Well even if you ignore the huge benefit and happiness the children get from a SAHM - making the SAHM happy and allowing the male OH to prioritise his career is actually a considerable amount of value. Who doesn’t want to be happy? If you want a career then it’s a wonderful thing to have someone that allows you to have family and prioritise it.

Thats actually a lot of value.

MsPincher · 25/09/2022 16:01

keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth · 25/09/2022 15:59

You seriously overlook children and their needs like that. This was exactly my point on detached parenting.

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No children are perfectly well looked after by working parents. Especially when they are at school.

Original poster

Tsort · 25/09/2022 16:02

Charley50 · 25/09/2022 15:45

NRFT, so someone has probably mentioned this already but there is an article in the Sunday Times about life being worse for girls today than 50 years ago.

Oooh, no! Nobody had. Thanks for flagging. Off to read it.

OP posts:

Ameadowwalk · 25/09/2022 16:03

Tsort fair point!

MsPincher I am also a single parent, and have been for many years, also working FT. Sometimes I think it is just the most extreme manifestation of the sexual division of labour that everything is left to me to do… on the other hand, again, it is only in the 1970s that women were given equal rights to the custody of their children on separation and/or divorce. There are numerous examples in history of the children being given to other female relatives to look after or otherwise taken away from their mother if a couple split up.

Wouldloveanother · 25/09/2022 16:05

Topgub · 25/09/2022 15:58

@TinaPoopsy52

Please don't act like you don't judge women who work.

Its very clear that you do.

There is no value to the role of sahm outside of making the sahm happy and allowing her male oh to prioritise his career

Women being happy has no value? What are we striving for then?

MsPincher · 25/09/2022 16:06

TinaPoopsy52 · 25/09/2022 16:01

@Topgub

Well even if you ignore the huge benefit and happiness the children get from a SAHM - making the SAHM happy and allowing the male OH to prioritise his career is actually a considerable amount of value. Who doesn’t want to be happy? If you want a career then it’s a wonderful thing to have someone that allows you to have family and prioritise it.

Thats actually a lot of value.

Show quote history

I doubt your kids really care if you work or not except to have less respect for you as teens.

I want a career but not an unequal helpmeet who will skivvvy after me. Or tbh someone spending my cash while not contributing themselves. I’d rather have an equal relationship.

MsPincher · 25/09/2022 16:07

Wouldloveanother · 25/09/2022 16:05

Women being happy has no value? What are we striving for then?

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Lol - true happiness doesn’t come from a subordinate relationship. Not when you’re an adult

Wouldloveanother · 25/09/2022 16:09

MsPincher · 25/09/2022 16:07

Lol - true happiness doesn’t come from a subordinate relationship. Not when you’re an adult

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What does it come from, in your opinion?

keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth · 25/09/2022 16:12

MsPincher · 25/09/2022 16:00

It’s his bank card though. And he can take it away at anytime. My bank card is all mine. I wouldn’t want to use anymore else’s.

I don’t think it’s all positive from his point of view though. A relationship with an equal is a totally different thing and he is missing out on time with his kids. I loved having my au pair who cooked for us but it wasn’t a spouse relationship or anything like it.

interestingly enough at my work there are roughly two types of men - one married to fellow professionals and one married to women doing more traditionally feminine jobs (primary teachers, secretaries, etc). The latter tend to have much more sexist views and much more unequal relationships.

Show quote history

But the difference is he doesn't see it as missing out as he takes pride in his work.
Whereas I would see it as missing out because I take pride in being able to nurture my children full-time.