Britain and the US are poor societies with some very rich people- Average Polish family to be better off than the average UK family by 2024 (a far cry from the time when the UK was the biggest economy in the world when Queen Elizabeth was crowned)

[onthefencesitter]

Very interesting article from the FT-

www.ft.com/content/ef265420-45e8-497b-b308-c951baa68945



'Its a similar story in the middle. In 2007, the average UK household was 8 per cent worse off than its peers in north-western Europe, but the deficit has since ballooned to a record 20 per cent. On present trends, the average Slovenian household will be better off than its British counterpart by 2024, and the average Polish family will move ahead before the end of the decade. A country in desperate need of migrant labour may soon have to ask new arrivals to take a pay cut.


It’s a similar story in the middle. In 2007, the average UK household was 8 per cent worse off than its peers in north-western Europe, but the deficit has since ballooned to a record 20 per cent. On present trends, the average Slovenian household will be better off than its British counterpart by 2024, and the average Polish family will move ahead before the end of the decade. A country in desperate need of migrant labour may soon have to ask new arrivals to take a pay cut.'

I wonder how patriotic Brits feel about this. Do they comfort themselves with the fact that they are better off than African countries (which have often been looted and invaded and suffered from extremely unstable political environments as well as war) despite the fact that the UK is relatively politically stable and is at peace? yes in the past, the british working class suffered great poverty but it was not poorer relative to the poor in its colonies or other 'developing countries' . Certainly for the average UK person to be poorer than the average polish person who were liberated from communism a mere 32 years ago is quite a feat...

[pointythings]

It'll all be the EU's fault. I mean, how dare they, collaborating to make everyone more prosperous when there's tooth and claw capitalism available to exploit people with!

And yet people will continue to vote Tory.

[onthefencesitter]

Full article:

For all but the most ardent free-market libertarians, the answer would be the latter. Research has consistently shown that while most people express a desire for some distance between top and bottom, they would rather live in significantly more equal societies than they do today. Many would even choose the more egalitarian society if the total pie was smaller than in a less equal one.
Based on this, it follows that a good way to judge which countries are better places to live than others is to ask: is life good for everyone there, or is it only good for rich people?
To find the answer, we can look at how people at different points in the income distribution compare to their peers elsewhere. If you’re a proud British or American, you may want to look away now.
Starting at the top of the ladder, Britons enjoy a very high standard of living by virtually any yardstick. Last year, the top-earning 3 percent of UK households each took home around £84,000 after tax, equivalent to $125,000 after adjusting for price differences between countries. This puts Britain’s top earners just behind the wealthiest Germans and Norwegians and comfortably among the global elite.
So what happens when we go down the steps? For Norway, it is a consistently rosy picture. The top 10 percent ranks second for standard of living among the top deciles in all countries; the average Norwegian household ranks second among all national averages, and at the very bottom on the other hand, Norway’s poorest 5 percent is the most affluent bottom 5 percent in the world. Norway is a good place to live whether you are rich or poor.
Britain is a different story. While the top earners are in fifth place, the average household is in 12th and the poorest 5 percent in 15th. Far from simply losing touch with their Western European peers, last year the lowest income group of British households had a standard of living that was 20 percent lower than their counterparts in Slovenia.
It’s a similar story in the middle. In 2007, the average British household was 8 percent worse off than its peers in northwestern Europe, but the deficit has since risen to a record 20 percent. According to current trends, the average Slovenian household will be better off than its British counterpart by 2024, and the average Polish family will progress before the end of the decade. A country in dire need of migrant workers may soon have to ask newcomers for a pay cut.
Across the Atlantic, it’s the same story, just more. The rich in the US are exceptionally wealthy – the top 10 percent have the highest top-decil disposable incomes in the world, 50 percent above their UK counterparts. But the lower deciles struggle with a standard of living worse than the poorest in 14 European countries, including Slovenia.
To be clear, US data shows that both broad-based growth and the equal distribution of the proceeds is important for well-being. Five years of healthy pre-pandemic growth in US living standards in distribution has lifted all boats, a trend that has been conspicuously absent in the UK.
But redistributing profits more evenly would have a much more profound effect on the quality of life of millions of people. As a result of the growth spurt, incomes in the lower decile of American households rose by about an additional 10 percent. But move Norway’s inequality gradient to the US, and the poorest decile of Americans would be another 40 percent better off, while the top decile would remain richer than the top of nearly every other country on the planet.
Our leaders are of course right in pursuing economic growth, but to allay concerns about the distribution of a decent standard of living – which essentially measures income inequality – is not to be interested in the lives of millions. Until those gradients are made less steep, the UK and US will remain poor societies with many rich people.

[sarahb083]

Thanks for sharing. This is very depressing and the comparison to other countries really highlights how awful the UK has become under so many years of tory government.

[Donotgogentle]

The FT - bunch of communists.

[jetadore]

Yeh, that’s the plan, they’ll be glad to hear it’s working.

[onthefencesitter]

@Donotgogentle

The FT - bunch of communists.

they are owned by a conservative Japanese media company and have traditionally been regarded as centre right.

they are definitely not communists. they are the paper of choice of City workers including DH and myself. Its just that large swathes of the UK population being poorer than average Polish people is not good for the economy particularly since such a large percentage of our economy consists of retail.

[FinanceLPlates]

@Donotgogentle

The FT - bunch of communists.

I assumed this to be deep sarcasm

[jetadore]

Interesting article though.
Particularly this part, “Research has consistently shown that while most people express a desire for some distance between top and bottom, they would rather live in significantly more equal societies than they do today. Many would even choose the more egalitarian society if the total pie was smaller than in a less equal one.”

I can’t square people’s supposed desire for more equality while consistently voting in the Tories.

[spuddy56]

I've often wondered about this. Being on the poorer side of middle class where my partner is from can mean living in a fairly nice, modest flat above the garage, large garden for growing things, able to survive on minimum wage level jobs and have children, run two cars, and generally live simply but well. They have better access to doctors, dentists health care, childcare and a university education etc. We can't afford the garage, garden or children despite being in what should be ok jobs. I would not recommend university to most young people in this country.

[HesterAndPearlInBrightSunshine]

I can’t square people’s supposed desire for more equality while consistently voting in the Tories

They voted in populists more than anything else.
People vote for populists when they feel their sense of national identity is all they have left. That is the sure fire sign of a society getting poorer...

[Ritasueandbobtoo9]

We are being ripped off. Services in were much better when I was young. Show me the money?

[Thepeopleversuswork]

@jetadore

Interesting article though.
Particularly this part, “Research has consistently shown that while most people express a desire for some distance between top and bottom, they would rather live in significantly more equal societies than they do today. Many would even choose the more egalitarian society if the total pie was smaller than in a less equal one.”

I can’t square people’s supposed desire for more equality while consistently voting in the Tories.

I don’t think a desire for more equality was the motivation behind people voting Tory. A lot of it was about Brexit and British jinogoism, combined with a residual sense that Labour isn’t fit for office (I am not saying I agree with this but it’s a widely held view).

A lot of people quite like the idea that the Tory party represents the strivers and those who are motivated to advance their status. These people don’t particularly want greater social equality and they don’t care about people slipping through the gaps.

The trouble is that many of these “upwardly mobile” people will be caught out in the general dive in living standards in ways they didn’t imagine.

[cocavino]

It's appalling and depressing.

[idonotmind]

It's race to the bottom.

I can't afford heating - put on another sweater is the answer from many people on here!

[Allthegoodnamesarechosen]

I don’t think most of the antiTories posting here would like it in Poland much. They don’t have much time for DIE there.

[GobbolinoTheWitchesCat]

I'm a patriotic Brit, why do you imply I'll have issues reconciling myself to the article?

Can one only be patriotic if they sit on a certain point of the political spectrum?

[sst1234]

Yet there has never been much of an exodus from UK to Poland. Even when were in the EU. I wonder why.

[SerendipityJane]

@sst1234

Yet there has never been much of an exodus from UK to Poland. Even when were in the EU. I wonder why.

asymmetry of language ?

And if you need that pointed out you are thick as mince.

[onthefencesitter]

@sst1234

Yet there has never been much of an exodus from UK to Poland. Even when were in the EU. I wonder why.

Firstly this is a projection i.e. it hasn't happened yet. But is projected to happen in two years. British incomes have taken a battering in part also due to the fall of the pound

Secondly, many British people are monolingual. norway is richer than the UK and is part of the EEA but British people haven't exactly all moved there despite being able to.

Thirdly, the fact that an average family earns XXX in XXX country doesn't mean that you will automatically earn an average income if you are average in the UK and then move to XXX country. Tell that to the immigrant taxi drivers with PhDs in Canada (as canada allows people with good academic qualifications to move tehre without a job). How much you earn also has to do with whether your skills are valued by the local job market.

[caroleanboneparte]

We live in such bubble communities that we only see and compare ourselves to those in similar economic circumstances.

So most people don't see to what extent others are struggling.

(See the thread where posters are saying there's no poverty because marks and Spencer's and airports are busy!!!)

It doesnt surprise me at all that the average Brit is getting poorer. We've had an ideological war on the poor since 2010.

[Cornettoninja]

I can’t square people’s supposed desire for more equality while consistently voting in the Tories

Aside from recent years where they’ve chosen to appeal to the far right, I think a lot of them consider themselves further up the pyramid than they actually are. That uncomfortable truth sits well in buying into those poorer than themselves being the cause of all their frustrations.

[Donotgogentle]

@FinanceLPlates

I assumed this to be deep sarcasm

Of course!!

[RosaGallica]

It doesnt surprise me at all that the average Brit is getting poorer. We've had an ideological war on the poor since 2010

Actually it’s been going on for a lot longer than that. Blair’s New Labour papered over some deep cracks in the economy by giving lots of money to the very poorest and the established middle aged at the time. He afforded it by robbing the then-young of our futures, by continuing to sell off public services, throwing us wide open to globalisation while deregulating markets, mucking up education and job markets by expanding universities and privatising them with tuition fees and mucking up housing with buy-to-let landlords.

That is why people voted in the Tories, and that is why I don’t think I will be voting in the next election, for Labour or anyone else.

Changing colours of political ties means nothing and people need to see beyond that if they really want change. You need to see the economy as it affects those who need to work their way up, not just as it affects middle classes with nice supportive backgrounds and private safety nets and their well-meaning charitable giveaways.

[RosaGallica]

The deep cracks were caused by the destruction of old ways of life with nothing to put in their place: the miner’s strikes and technology change of the 80s- early 00s, along with globalisation. Those issues are still there.

[EmeraldShamrock1]

Naturally the Polish economy was going to flourish when family members are working abroad spending very little and saving hard with enough to return to purchase property or set-up family members.

Builders and tradesmen earn over 20 euro an hour.

I lived in a 2 bedroom apartment, the apartment next door 2 bedroom had 10 men living there.

My Lithuanian neighbours must have 15 people in a 3 bedroom house.

Many have went back in a good financial position if they're smart enough.

If I could go abroad and triple my income I'd go for 10 years.