Britain and the US are poor societies with some very rich people- Average Polish family to be better off than the average UK family by 2024 (a far cry from the time when the UK was the biggest economy in the world when Queen Elizabeth was crowned)

[onthefencesitter]

Very interesting article from the FT-

www.ft.com/content/ef265420-45e8-497b-b308-c951baa68945

'Its a similar story in the middle. In 2007, the average UK household was 8 per cent worse off than its peers in north-western Europe, but the deficit has since ballooned to a record 20 per cent. On present trends, the average Slovenian household will be better off than its British counterpart by 2024, and the average Polish family will move ahead before the end of the decade. A country in desperate need of migrant labour may soon have to ask new arrivals to take a pay cut.

It’s a similar story in the middle. In 2007, the average UK household was 8 per cent worse off than its peers in north-western Europe, but the deficit has since ballooned to a record 20 per cent. On present trends, the average Slovenian household will be better off than its British counterpart by 2024, and the average Polish family will move ahead before the end of the decade. A country in desperate need of migrant labour may soon have to ask new arrivals to take a pay cut.'

I wonder how patriotic Brits feel about this. Do they comfort themselves with the fact that they are better off than African countries (which have often been looted and invaded and suffered from extremely unstable political environments as well as war) despite the fact that the UK is relatively politically stable and is at peace? yes in the past, the british working class suffered great poverty but it was not poorer relative to the poor in its colonies or other 'developing countries' . Certainly for the average UK person to be poorer than the average polish person who were liberated from communism a mere 32 years ago is quite a feat...

Because the income inequality and wealth inequality figures on your site are uncannily similar, yet drastically different from the Credit Suisse report. Page 117.

www.credit-suisse.com/media/assets/corporate/docs/about-us/research/publications/global-wealth-databook-2019.pdf

Uncannily similar to one another, yet drastically different from...

That should have read.

The key word in your post is its 'citizen'. In UK, you can live and work for 6 years, then you can apply for ILR and a year later citizenship. In Singapore you can be high skilled and high income immigrant for 10 years with no criminal record but, you might never get the PR, let alone be a citizen. It might be easy 15 years ago in Singapore, not anymore. It's highly subjective and not transparent, there is also race based quota. UK system is not perfect but you can be in low income salary, as long as you meet the criteria, you and your family become citizen, and you are entitled to UK social services. So UK has far more percentage of people entitled to social services than Singapore.

Singapore is very selective in offering its nationality. So if you are the founder of Dyson or co founder of Facebook, you become Singaporean easily, and why wouldn't you want to do that, you pay such little tax on your wealth compared to UK or US. Singapore is a tax haven for wealthy.

Also you can't compare income of UK with Singapore. Singapore is located to a strategic location, near Malacca Strait, which is the largest strait in the world and very important shipping trade route. Singapore also values educational meritocracy, which makes its people more productive.

It's easy to help those in need if you have a lot of money and a smaller group of people in need of help.

But Singapore also has people from neighbouring poor countries working as house helps, who don't earn that much considering country's wealth.

Also, Singapore is not that foreigner friendly place ( especially since 2010) despite having 40% immigrant contributing to its economy. In recent years, Singapore government took measure to control immigration. A few years ago government increased the minimum salary requirement for issuing employment pass.

And during last 2 years, Singapore placed higher travel restrictions placed on foreign residents compared to citizens or PR. I read somewhere that Singaporeans were given a priority in vaccination programme and foreign residents were at the back of the queue.

So in my humble opinion, Singapore is not a good example for the UK to look up to in the matter of equality.

I would be more interested to discuss how to improve social and economical problems in current UK without comparing it to any other country as every country has different dynamics.

In my view, UK should emphasise more on education than it did in recent years - better funding, higher salaries to teachers and lower university fees.
If I were in the government, I would be lowering expense on defence, increasing tax for the wealthy and removing any perks for politicians ( I know it won't happen with Tory). We need some real patriotic politicians who deeply care for the country and its people, not the power hungry and lining their own pockets kinds.

A lot of people don't want to apply for Singapore citizenship as you would have to renounce your own citizenship. It's one reason why I don't have British citizenship despite having ILR, I want to be able to maintain my bank account in Singapore and buy Singapore investment products easily despite not living there or being high net worth.. Richer expats also don't need the benefits of Singapore citizenship as their private healthcare is paid for by their companies and they can also afford to rent private condos on high salaries, eventually they will save up enough to buy houses in UK/Germany etc and often eventually return. Imho, there is limited benefit if you are rich to apply for Singapore citizenship as you would not want to live in government flats (different for young Singaporeans as even a rich young Singaporean would not start out earning £200k and hence would benefit from buying a subsidized government flat in their 20s). My dad's electrician is Malaysian and he has saved up to buy a house in Malaysia and has access to healthcare in Malaysia, and it's close enough to commute.

i know many foreigners in Singapore who have gotten Singapore citizenship actually. It can be a bit of a lottery but it isn't as difficult. In the UK, getting a visa in the first place as a non EU citizen is difficult though admittedly it has gotten much easier in recent years though the fees to become a citizen are extremely high (as much as £8k in 5 years). My comparison to Singapore was to say that countries can prosper very quickly and if UK doesn't keep up, it will indeed fall behind. In the UK, people will often reason that it's fine to not switch on heating/eat the cheapest food/live in a house with no insulation because their grandmother did that. At that time, the world was overall less prosperous so I guess this kind of lifestyle was not unusual across countries. But have the British people who do this and think it's ok ever thought about if people from other countries do this?

There were definitely mistakes made under New Labour; however I think that each administration has to be taken on its own merit rather than harkening back to what happened 12+ years ago. People still hold the late 1970s against Labour - when does one draw a line underneath a particular period in time?

Not voting is not going to change anything (although I appreciate that under the present voting system, a vote is not as valuable as it would be under proportional representation) except leave the Tories in charge.

And if you are Singaporean or PR, you get to keep less of your take home pay as you are forced to save 20% of your income. Employer also contributes 16% to forced savings. So a foreigner would 'earn more' every month. Yes it's a good idea to have forced savings for your pension/housing/healthcare costs which is what this is used for and the Singapore government is notorious for setting limits on what you can take out (generally you can take it out to buy a home and for emergency medical but they want to make sure there is plenty left as many Singaporeans are now expected to live until 90). But if you are in Singapore to earn money for the short term (particularly to help your family) like the people from other countries in southeast Asia, is this what you would envision for yourself? Also if Dyson becomes a PR, any sons he has would serve national service. They would have to fight in any war to defend Singapore. Rich westerners don't tend to want this!

@onthefencesitter but what about if you don't have PR? Point is it is very hard to get PR by any standards in the world, you compared Singapore to UK, when the dynamics are so different.

Also, genuine question why do you live in London over Singapore when you have that choice and know that Singapore can offer you and your family much better standard of living? Asking this because we had a chance to go to Singapore and indeed salary and perks were unbelievable but we chose not as we talk to several expats and also I have a sibling who recently left Singapore after living there for about 10 years, no doubt the salaries are high, you can live in a really luxurious condo and have a pool, house help etc but when you are a foreigner, there is an air of discrimination and hierarchy based on which country you come from and irrespective of your high salaries and education, you know that you are not equal because you are not from one of those countries or races which are deemed superior.

Well I managed to buy a flat in London in my 20s so by that token, I don't require the government housing in Singapore. Cost of living in London and Singapore is roughly the same; in fact in many ways london is cheaper esp when you take nhs into account. I have lived in Europe since I was 19, it is my home in many ways. You are right about the air of discrimination; but trust me, even as a native singaporean, people judge you based on the car you drive, the bag you carry, your salary etc. My parents for example, think a six figure salary is a 'minimum wage' (and no i don't earn a 6 figure salary so they think i am basically a peasant) and being a VP at a bank is a low down position (my DH is AVP at a bank in London). There are lots of people like that in singapore, i think they are even a little less snobby than average.

People are a lot more materialistic and believe me they would judge you more based on your money than based on your nationality or the colour of your skin! Thats what its about. On the other hand, people being shallow and materialistic has nothing to do with the government. On the other hand, it can be exhausting to live there.

But on the other hand, when you judge countries, I don't think its fair to compare the lives of PRs in Singapore vs citizens in the UK. You have to compare like with like. I am not a British citizen either! For example, when I was getting my mortgage in 2019, i didn't have indefinite leave to remain and i couldn't qualify for lots of mortgages including nationwide. But that doesn't reflect that Uk is a bad country for foreigners just because of that.

If you don't have PR, you have to make sure you can afford to buy private housing. I think you can rent government flats too (just not buy them). I think a lot of foreigners treat Singapore the way many people treat London tbh, its a good place to work and earn money to enable them to buy in their home country. With an expat package, you have to worry less about such things . The main reason why expats go to Singapore from my experience is because there are more promotion opportunities and like many things in life,its about the earnings.And if you have a good job, the chance for promotion is much higher. 1 in 4 singaporeans marry foreigners and most of them do stay in Singapore (and most must buy government flats so their spouses must have gotten permanent residency).

@onthefencesitter I wasn't comparing PRs with British citizens. My point was UK is much bigger and complex. Every year UK grants ILRs and citizenships which adds number of people depending on public services.

However, I agree with you that salaries in general are lower than many places. It seems like, a complete makeover of economy is required. Problem is run by very selfish government.

Like you I am also from an old colony and I feel as my much home here as in my birth country.

I think UK should not allow residents from commonwealth nations who are not yet atleast ILR holders to vote in General Election as many of them don't have a plan to live in UK long term. Many voted in favour of brexit.