To think sis should kick her DD out?

[Calligraph]

NC as may be outing.
My niece, let’s call her Amy, is 20 and never had a job. She left school with no GCSEs because she missed a lot of school due to mental health issues.
She stayed in a hospital for a few months because she was suicidal.
My sis, with the rising costs and being a single parent, can no longer afford to pay all the bills, food, clothes etc for herself, Amy and her younger son who’s still at school.
Amy, for the past 4 years has refused to get a job or sign on and she says my sis should pay for everything as she’s the parents and she didn’t ask to be born.
If sis gets too pushy, Amy threatens suicide and gets verbally abusive. She does nothing all day, won’t clean, tidy etc as she says her mental health is too bad, she’s too depressed etc…
This is making my sis really depressed and at the end of her tether, after all bills, food and fuel have been paid for, my sis has £4 a week for anything else. Amy still demands takeaways and when sis refuses, Amy gets sulky and starts being spiteful to her brother, gets told off and skulks off to her room.
AIBU to think my sis should kick her out and let her go to council for help? I know sis won’t do that though bc it’s her daughter.
Amy and my sis fight constantly and my sis has had enough and doesn’t know what to do any more.
Amy had counselling but refused to talk even after 10 sessions, she just sat there staring, so counsellor said she couldn’t help her.
GP can’t help, Amy is on antidepressants but they don’t seem to have helped in any way.
My sis complains to me but I don’t know what to suggest any more.
Has anyone ever had this problem and if so, what did you do?

@Calligraph one way to access social services support to try and break out of this cycle would be to contact them in reference to Amy's brother. He's still a child and being exposed to the same behaviour mum is. If he's deemed to be at risk, it may trigger further social services support to look at Amy living elsewhere or support for mum around how to manage the situation.

Also, i would agree with PP that it might be worth considering a developmental disorder like ASD - it would make her more vulnerable to MH problems and people with ASD can try to manage these difficulties in what can be seen as manipualtive ways, just because they lack the coping strategies and emotional skill to do anything different. Mum tries to push her to do something, anxiety skyrockets, she threatens suicide so mum backs off, her anxiety goes down and she feels better again - her strategy worked. She clearly struggles to empathise with the impact of that strategy on mum, either because she's too unwell or because she has something like ASD which means it's not something that comes naturally to her anyway. You're not likely to get her to agree to an assessment, but if she does have more of the core ASD symptoms (obsessional interests, repetitive behaviour, poor non verbal skills, poor social interaction skills) she might find it helpful if it gives a possible explanation for why she struggles so much. Her mum might also be able to access support groups locally if you do think her behaviour over the years would fit.

Could your sister contact SS and ask for a social worker? Your sister should not buy Amy clothes, trainers, phone credit, or anything except basic food and explain she needs to work to earn money. Does not sound like MH problems. Does she really take her medication?

I've got a DD with MH issues. It's difficult unless you experience it you can't judge.
From Amys history it's clear she has a lot MH issues , she may also have undiagnosed conditions such as pathological demand avoidance/ oppositional defiant disorder/ autism.
It is very difficult living with someone with poor MH.
They often refuse help. It's even harder when they are an adult and you can't intervene in the same way.
But they can.get better especially with the right support and medication.
I think you need to support your sister to support your niece without judgement.
Throwing your mentally ill child out will not improve their mental health or magically make them better and able to cope. It is likely to be a disaster.
Are there any charities or support groups that could help your sister. Investigate benefits such as PIP for your niece and possibly carers allowance for your sister.

I agree with a PP who's said to contact the council and explain that they're asking their adult daughter to leave, what are the options.

Amy will not get any better if this is permitted to continue, and your Dsis will get worse. This arrangement is not helping anybody.

Yeah, that didn’t happen. You conveniently have an answer for everything. But no doctor is going to say that especially since there are severe mental disorders that cause fake suicide attempts and extreme attention seeking behaviours. A real doctor would have still had a psychologist assess her.

But according to OP, Amy and brother were raised the same…so when did this alleged spoiling happen?

Could your sister speak to your GP & ask for the community mental health team to visit? Failing that there is a crisis team that you can ring 24/7 365 days a year, it may be handy to speak to them.

Or PDA subtype of Autism, they have very similar symptoms. It doesn't sound like she's living a great life, that she wouldn't want to lose. She sounds miserable and stuck, pathologically scared or anxious about everything. She doesn't really sound suicidal, she does sound manipulative, but the reason for that manipulation could be fear or anxiety or ODD or something else. My brother was like this in some ways for years, he was depressed, though wouldn't admit it and he did sign on and job search, which made his depression worse as he couldn't get a job.

Things did get better eventually, he has a job now, but still has a massive amount of support. I'm not convinced he needs as much as they give him, though he does need some level of support to function in daily life. I've taken a step back, not my monkeys, not my circus. That was really all I could do. I think he would have gotten better sooner if our parents had set some boundaries and pushed for small incremental changes. I agree with a PP that she needs to be parented like a young teen, boundaries, expectations, small sustainable changes building on each other. I think it's what my brother still needs but I can't make my parents give him what he needs.

The money is a big issue if your sister literally can't afford to support her anymore. She could try an ultimatum around that, go to the GP, get medical proof and apply for PIP or whatever she qualifies for or she has to leave, but that only has a chance of working if your sister's prepared to follow through. She could put that in writing and say Amy won't be able to live there past X date which would qualify her as homeless, though I expect it would be only temporary accommodation or a bad bedsit. Ultimately you can't fix any of this, you can listen and support or if that's getting too much you can step back and engage less, there's nothing really you can do to change the way things are.

if this was a partner behaving in this way everyone would be calling him an abusive cocklodger and saying to ltb

or if it was a son of that age and not a daughter, there would be similar responses and no sympathy/support for him.

There are quite a few questions from some people, not all kind to be honest but will do my best to explain in more detail the reason for my subject.
I have watched dsis become a shell of her former self over the last 4 years. She can’t cope with Amy’s behaviour.
Amy has seen many doctors, therapists and a psychologist over the years but refuses to talk.
Dsis has explained to these healthcare professionals how depressed Amy is and how Amy has no interest in seeing friends, getting a job or doing anything around the house and the conclusion from all these people she’s been assigned to is basically, if Amy won’t talk, there isn’t much we can do or offer.
She’s had lots of tests, she had one test for ADHD but just looked at the wall and shrugged when asked questions. Doctor said they couldn’t diagnose her with anything if she refused to answer.

Its become more of a problem since Dsis received her energy bill, increase of £100 per month when only £28 is spare after bills, food and fuel. She works full time and doesn’t spend much on herself at all. For example, I do her hair and nails as she doesn’t have the money.

Amy won’t even wash a plate to help out when Dsis is working all day. Dsis comes home to a mess every single week day.

If Dsis asks Amy to do something to help, even ask for a cuppa after work (she’s a nurse and on her feet all day, 12 hr shifts), Amy says she’s not a servant and to ‘make it herself’.

Dsis tried the nicey nicey approach to start with when Amy first presented with problems and got nothing back. Ignored, verbally abused.
She took her to every medical appointment she could afford (family helped pay including myself) so she had access to private therapist but refused to engage. She ended up in a hospital because Dsis couldn’t cope with her and a toddler at the time so it wasn’t a ‘sectioning’ but a voluntary admission.
I was living abroad when Amy first had behavioural problems and moved back to help Dsis so it’s not like I’ve been unsupportive!

I hate seeing what it’s doing to Dsis. When Dsis gets upset, Amy smirks. She actually seems to like my Dsis being sad! That’s when I feel angry and think she should be thrown out!

Dsis wouldn’t though as she’d be fretting about Amy 24/7.

Its been a massive vicious circle for years and I feel something drastic needs to happen.

Amy said today she is not signing on as she’s ‘not a fucking council estate person’! She’s just so bloody difficult!

Following your update OP, regardless of Amy's supposed mental health issues (keeping quiet at every appointment could be a way of making sure professionals can't tell how well she would function without all of her mothers support, ie keeping her cushy situation) I would be writing to every available organisation to get this girl out of my house! I would also be recording every single outburst she has so I had proof of the abuse to show them (I bet if anyone payed a home visit she would be sweetness and light)
Absolutely no way would I be working 12 hour shifts to fund someone who couldn't even be arsed to make me a cup of tea!
I would also be showing Amy local bedsits etc and being very clear there is a possibility she will end up living there in the near future and explaining that her behaviour is so poor that organisations are now being involved to re house her.
Basically I would let her know her free ride has come to an abrupt halt down to her unacceptable behaviour and actions.

@Calligraph I've read your update. Amy cannot be forced to accept help at present as she's deemed to have capacity. The fact there's been lots of past contact with professionals shows there is a huge issue with Amy's mental health.

The only recourse I can see your dsis having is to get help for herself and her DS. Your sis is the one suffering. It is up to her to access that support.

I get it must be awful to witness and feel helpless, but it's your sister's choice as to what help she takes.