Entitled attitude: grandparents must provide childcare

[Hope54321]

I’m seeing a lot more of this attitude quite recently. Why do people have children if they can’t look after them or pay for their childcare? Why is it that grandparents are expected to do the childcare so the parents can work? I think it’s acceptable if the grandparents are offering to help out, but to feel like grandparents should be obliged to offer childcare is simply taking the biscuit.

many people won’t accept they have any obligation towards even people they love the most

For me the whole point of this thread is about entitlement. Your use of the word ‘obligation’ is very telling.

I disagree that people don’t have any other options. You work out your options according to your situation. The majority of people do not have grandparents nearby so have options of part-time working, paid childcare, reducing their standard of living until things get easier, saving up before having kids etc. People just do this automatically all the time.

If you have willing grandparents then lovely and great but all of this stuff about society and generational privilege is just a mask for those with a (very strong) sense of entitlement.

It should be recognised though that often entitlement comes from your upbringing.

If you grew up with your parents expecting, and taking, lots of help from your grandparents and that’s commonly how things work in your family then imo it’s not outrageous to be surprised when that is very different when there’s another generation. Especially if it’s choice, rather than the case that circumstances are different (GP’s still working for example).

I know one in my family who was very vocal about it taking a village to raise a child. She expected, and received, help from her parents. She also expected her children to have close relationships with their cousins and she herself took part in creating that.
However, despite being fit healthy and retired young, she does nothing with her grandchildren. Not even just no childcare, but makes zero effort to have any kind of relationship with them. It’s not entitled of her children to be surprised and upset by that.

Well yes, life has indeed changed and the situation today isn’t comparable to the situation 50 years ago. As the one 50 years ago isn’t comparable to the one 50 years before that, and so on. Is it ‘fair’?, well no, depending on perspective some things work in our favorite, others in the favor of past generations. That’s life. You have to work with what is actually available to you, not what you think should be.

it also isn’t ‘fair’ to think grandparents have an obligation to make up for this perceived unfairness and give up their own plans so as to best service you. A lot of grandparents today are still working full time themselves, and even if they’re not, it’s quite reasonable to want to spend your remaining healthy years doing those things you couldn’t when you were working and raising children.

ultimately, no. There is no obligation on the parts of grandparents. Rather than there being a need for people to accept their obligations, you instead need to accept that they do not in fact have these.

Speak for yourself. I'm more than happy to have higher taxation if it facilitates better conditions for families. I'd much rather do that than feel my adult children's lifestyle depended on my ability to provide childcare.
For a start it perpetuates inequalities as even if every GP felt the obligation it will only ever be possible for those who are fit enough, solvent enough and geographically close enough to help.
What about those with parents who genuinely can't? The gap between them and those with parents who can just widens.
Personally I'd be more than happy if everyone was taxed in accordance with their means so that help from GPs could be an a bonus rather than seen as an essential.

You're only interested in statistics and not the lived reality anyway, it seems.

She’s not even interested in those. Poopooing an unemployment rate of 12 to 20% because it apparently affected only a minority is proof of someone who lives in cloud cuckoo land. No clue about the knock on effect of mass unemployment on the whole of society.

ultimately, no. There is no obligation on the parts of grandparents. Rather than there being a need for people to accept their obligations, you instead need to accept that they do not in fact have these.

Sure. But by the same token there is no obligation an adult children to look after their elderly parents.

You are giving extreme examples here of people expecting grandparents ro give up work to look after gc but I honestly have never personally come across that in RL, nor have i even met anyone who expects their parents to look after GC 5 days a week. I 'expect' meaning I would be surprised and very disappointed if we weren't helped out with childcare in an emergency, ie 1 child needs a and e, GPs come and pick up the other so they're not obliged to sit in the waitng room with me and the other child, at least until my DP can get back from work, and an evening every couple of months so we can have a night out. That is all I 'expect' and I honestly think that is reasonable (luckily so does my DF (dm sadly passed away before DC were born)
My own GP though until they died aged 96, refused any outside help at all, and relied on myself and my DF for absolutely everything. Shopping, cleaning, personal care, home and garden maintenance.
My DF is 72 years old himself. So Granny had a lovely retirement, travelling the world, until health declined in the last few years the ENTITLEMENT in our family at least was most definitely from the elder, rather than the younger generation.

I didn’t say that anyone was obliged to provide elderly care. They’re not.

and no, I don’t think anyone said that grandparents should give up work. My point was that many are still working and therefore don’t have the time to provide childcare.

You can think your expectation are reasonable of course, but the point is that you can expect all you like, if someone is not willing to provide then that’s that. They don’t have to. It’s better to take what they do as the kindness it is, rather than something you’re owed.

Agree with @ancientgran . I don’t think you can bundle everyone in the previous generations together and say that because some things were better (eg salary vs house prices - for 1-2 generations), everything was better. Less technology, greater discrimination for women probably had big impacts too - not allowed to study some subjects, less pay for same work, shut out of jobs.

I think people need to get real. In my parents 20s they didnt have their own cars, they didnt move out of the family home until they got married, they didnt have gym memberships, they didnt go abroad on holidays once a year etc. Nowdays, all my friends except me spent their 20s living it up and doing what they wanted, travelling the world etc.

I spent my very early 20s pregnant and saving every single penny so thay we could put down a near enough 50% deposit on our first home. This meant i could give up my job when we had our first child.

If ny kids wait until theyre 30 odd to have kids, thats fine. But if they dont have money behind them to do so, thats on them. I intend to spend my 40s and 50s doing all the things i didnt when i was bringing my children up.

All 20+ pages of this thread boils down to one inescapable problem : professional childcare is too expensive.

I think people need to get real. In my parents 20s they didnt have their own cars, they didnt move out of the family home until they got married, they didnt have gym memberships, they didnt go abroad on holidays once a year etc. Nowdays, all my friends except me spent their 20s living it up and doing what they wanted, travelling the world etc.

All the anecdotes in the world don't change the fact that housing costs are on another planet now compared to what they were 40-50 years ago. Coupled with over a decade of wage stagnation and the most expensive childcare in Europe and new parents have a really shitty time of it, I'm sure most would agree.

Which considering how poorly paid a career it is says a lot.

I admit we had to move out of London (away from family) to buy, but that was a sacrifice we thought was worth making for me to be able to stay off work. And yes, house prices are mental, no doubt. It still doesnt change the fact that people are often unwilling to go without to save up.

It makes me laugh when people are all ‘oh my parents didn’t splash out money on iPhones/gym memberships back in their day’

no because they didn’t fucking exist 😂 they weren’t valiantly going without.

So what? They existed when i went without them. Im only 37. People cant complain their mum isnt looking after their kids for them if they spent their 20s having the life of riley

But you’re proving the point. People aren’t living a life of riley buying iPhones and gym memberships, they’re going without them like you did. It isn’t ‘going without’ if they didn’t exist at the time.

I concede that there are people who go without and still cant save up etc.

However, when i look at my friends they spent all their cash when they had no responsibilities (and i dont blame them one bit) but they are now complaining how dear everything is!

All im getting at is that if my children wanna spend their money in their 20s, il be damned if they expect me to look after grandkids when i know full well the sacrifices we made for me to be at home for them.

To be fair, it doesn’t matter why. The fact remains that people in those days had a much more basic standard of living.

Gyms and exercise classes did exist. Most people could not afford them. But plenty of middle-class mums paid for one exercise class a week. Ordinary women bought videos and did exercise classes in their living room.
The late seventies and eighties when there was an explosion in interest in exercise classes and gyms. It is when you first started getting gyms appearing that were not aimed at boxers and weightlifters.
There were gyms in five-star hotels and in wealthy places.
Most people could not afford them.

Agreed. The very high unemployment rate was concentrated amongst young people and people over 50. The unemployment rate in these age groups was much higher. It is easy now for people leaving school to get a job, it was very hard in large parts of the country in the eighties.

I had four children in the 70s, and childminded and fostered. Neither of those occupations brought much money in, there was no wage element to fostering at that time. I had no help and didn't expect any. It was my choice to have those children. We lived in poverty, because we earned £2.50 per month too much to claim benefits that would also have given us free school meals and prescriptions, so I definitely could not have afforded child care. I remember running out of money, frequently, and going to a little shop up the road, because they would divide a pack of loo rolls and sell me one.
By the time my first Grandchild was born I was working full time and could not offer child care. But then my son and daughter in law were responsible people and did not expect that from me. The odd days I looked after her were by my choice and we both really enjoyed that time together, because it was not a drudge for me.
Now remind me.... what do I need to pay back??

I think expecting regular, free childcare from anyone who is not the other parent is a cheek to be honest. I'd hate to be retired and having to look after children full time or still be tied to the school run. However, I think grandparents who don't offer any help must be incredibly mean spirited. I think offering to pick up in an emergency or looking after a child on an inset day or when the parent has an emergency or appointment are absolutely fine and a fit, healthy, local grandparent who refuses to help on a one off basis is a pretty lousy human being.

I'm lucky to be in a,position where I can offer childcare, and parent care. I'm looking after my grandson and my mother-in-law this weekend. I can't help my other grandchildren as they live too far away.

Also to add I think this creates a huge inequality between women who have help and women who don't. My own parents are dead and my mil is incredibly disinterested. Because of that, I have not been able to work without severe restrictions on my time. Being a sahm has been much easier. However it's massively impacted me financially and my job prospects. Other women I know with grandparent support have had so much more opportunities in their careers. I know a woman who's mum comes over every day and looks after her child. If she has an early or late meeting or drinks after work, she can go easily. Just asks her mum to come earlier. She even does the housework while the mum is working.

That is ludicrous.