You're not working class!

[Womeninthesequel]

Ridiculous conversation with an NCT acquaintance - we as a group were discussing the cost of living crisis and it was mentioned that working class families are really going to struggle. He scoffed and said "not all working class families, we're going to be fine." To which I goggled, and said "you're not working class!" He looked cross and said "of course I am, I grew up on a council estate, my dad was a binman."

This is true, he definitely is from a working class background, but he went to university, then med school, is now a senior surgeon doing mainly private practice, he makes six figures (which he'll tell anyone who walks past him) and his house is currently on the market for £1.2mil! He's not working class! This was pointed out to him (not by me) and he was vastly offended. He seems to genuinely believe that his upbringing means he'll always be working class, but that's not right, right? Class isn't innate, is it?

He's a bit of a dick in general, but this has raised a wider conversation at home. DH is from a working class background and is now uni educated and a professional and feels he's now middle class, so is confused by the idea that he's not.

One event does not a social class make. If you were regularly invited to such events, if you regularly mixed in those social circles and wielded that level of social power, then it would be a different story.

Yes because class isn’t self defined. If Jacob Rees Mogg started wanging on that he was working class because he works for a living you wouldn’t suddenly turn around and agree with him would you? You would use lots of other markers to make a judgement.

I’m very proud of who I am. I was born into a middle class family and I am middle class as an adult. My mum was born into a working class family and through education; qualifications, wealth and changing social circles, became middle class as an adult.

Not read the whole thread, but whilst I agree that he is being a bit of an idiot and extremely insensitive to talk about himself as working class in the context of the OP's conversation re the cost of living crisis, I don't think being in a well paid profession makes you "fully" middle class if you've got a working class background.
Possibly things are a bit different now, but when I went to medical school in the early 80s I was still definitely in the minority as a working class girl from a grotty comprehensive school. From then, until the day I retired, I was regularly reminded in subtle, and sometimes less than subtle ways by my middle class colleagues that I was not really "one of them". For instance my accent was openly mocked by the examiners in one of my professional exams. It's hard to explain some of the more subtle stuff but you know it if you're experiencing it. There's no doubt that throughout my career I worked with large numbers of people who acknowledged me as their professional equal, or indeed superior, but made it clear that in their opinion I was socially inferior and always would be, no matter what position I held at work, where I lived or what I earned. My children on the other hand were totally accepted by their children. Made for the occasional interesting birthday party etc. 🤣 The OP's acquaintance may well have had similar experiences and part of the reason why he views himself as working class despite his wealth could well be because the differences between him and some if his colleagues are regularly reinforced.

That’s great. But you are clearly aware of the fact that your version of middle class is not the same as other peoples.

No of course not, because he doesn't fit the working class criteria 🙄

Yes, I know you'd use a lot of other markers to make a judgement, that's why I provided a lot of other markers in my post that you ignored.

But that’s the point I was making, somewhat clumsily it appears. YOU would make judgements of him rather than him being the one solely to define his class.

It's more complicated than that. I agree with others who say he's WC but has an MC salary. His children are MC.

That is still a determiner however it might be disguised currently.

I think he may feel working class still but for all intents and purposes, he is very much (upper) middle class and he's totally missed the point of your discussion. Myself and my other both come from working class backgrounds but both have degrees and work in education so we are not working class anymore regardless of where our social compass lies.

I would have thought it rather obvious that it is always the accent which will belie your social class.

So OP, the surgeon of your acquaintance, did he have a regional accent?
You see, if he doesn't then he has no place identifying himself as WC as he has clearly and very purposely changed his way of speaking to obfuscate his roots and presumably grant himself the benefit of greater social cohesion throughout his career.

Conversely if he speaks with his original accent then of course he is WC, nobody with for example a scouse of geordie accent would ever be accepted as anything otherwise.
I speak as somebody with one of the aforementioned accents who is also 'middle class by educational attainment and income bracket' but firmly working class by all other conceivable measures.

See I definitely would have said you were middle class as your identifiers for being working class aren't what I would deem, working class. I suppose in a way it's all relative and hugely subjective. A lot of it I guess is due to who you connect with socially, regardless of your lifestyle. I earn a fairly shitty wage for the SE (29K) but an barely out of my hunter wellies come the autumn and winter!

Working class - hunter wellies
Middle class - le chameau

I hope you've got tongue very much in cheek here 🤣 I went to a private girls' day school in the North of England for a few years, mixing with daughters of lawyers and dentists and doctors and suchlike, and apart from one girl who stood out for having a cut-glass RP accent, we all spoke like the Yorkshire girls we were. It's only really the very very posh who don't pick up the accent from wherever they grew up.

To me class is defined by your education and job. A person isn't stuck in the class they were born into.

Working class and wealth are two very different things. He is clearly working class if what you say regarding his background is correct. Just because he has done well for himself does not make him NOT working class. I really do not understand this interest in whether folk are working class or not

Absolutely. And that goes for anyone. Working class isn’t anything to be ashamed of.

It's depressing that there are always negative connotations when people talk about the working classes. There was a great thread on here once called something like 'why are the middle class ways always right' it was really interesting. It wasn't about bashing the middle classes just pointing out that it's all nonsense in the first place.

You see, I'd say he's very clearly middle class if he's a doctor. Working class background, but he's now middle class. Nothing to be ashamed of either way. Nothing wrong with his working class background, nor anything wrong with his now being middle class.

But you see I don't think that's the case at all. People far more often want to be seen as working class than middle class.
I think it's being middle class that has the negative connotations. Hence people declaring they're working class when they're clearly not. But nothing wrong with being either working or middle class. I wish we didn't have a class system tbh. It somehow reduces people

and apart from one girl who stood out for having a cut-glass RP accent, we all spoke like the Yorkshire girls we were

Yes, but surely there are Yorkshire accents and Yorkshire accents? I'm a southerner with a fairly RP accent living in Cumbria. There are definitely posher-sounding and less posh-sounding Cumbrian accents!

Sure, but the PP just said "a regional accent".

Yes, you're right. It definitely isn't true that having any kind of regional accent makes you working class!

What class people are is really complex and it can be jarring to hear you're no longer working class because you've improved your life a bit.

I've been told recently I'm no longer working class because I have a degree and a mortgage. I grew up poor as fuck in a council house raised by a lone parent. I've been skint most of my adult life and I still struggle with money. I earn about as much as a taxi driver- certainly less than most tradies and I'm a lone parent. My house cost £80k and is falling apart. I drive an 8 year old fiesta. Frankly it's a bit insulting to hear the working classes no longer claim me.

Yes, I can understand that. Actually from what you've said, I think you could still be working class. It's different from the person OP was describing. He's an actual doctor. That's a top profession, and definitely makes him middle class.
I actually think lots of people nowadays are a bit of both, and it's not clearly defined in some cases. But doctors and lawyers etc are unequivocally middle class.