You're not working class!

[Womeninthesequel]

Ridiculous conversation with an NCT acquaintance - we as a group were discussing the cost of living crisis and it was mentioned that working class families are really going to struggle. He scoffed and said "not all working class families, we're going to be fine." To which I goggled, and said "you're not working class!" He looked cross and said "of course I am, I grew up on a council estate, my dad was a binman."

This is true, he definitely is from a working class background, but he went to university, then med school, is now a senior surgeon doing mainly private practice, he makes six figures (which he'll tell anyone who walks past him) and his house is currently on the market for £1.2mil! He's not working class! This was pointed out to him (not by me) and he was vastly offended. He seems to genuinely believe that his upbringing means he'll always be working class, but that's not right, right? Class isn't innate, is it?

He's a bit of a dick in general, but this has raised a wider conversation at home. DH is from a working class background and is now uni educated and a professional and feels he's now middle class, so is confused by the idea that he's not.

I agree totally OP. He has a working class background, but is now very definitely middle class. A working class doctor is an oxymoron. They're mutually exclusive. It's also quite offensive to people working minimum wage jobs or working zero hours.
It's a uniquely British phenomenon, clearly middle class people thinking they're working class. I've encountered it many times, and it never ceases to amaze me. If you have a profession, to my mind, you're middle class. It's nothing to be ashamed of anyway, so I don't know why people are so worried about being seen as middle class?

It’s not the narrowest definition at all. It’s THE definition by dictionary.

Social class is dependent on education, wealth, occupation, income and culture.

The only thing you can ‘identify’ with is culture. The rest is defined by what you do and what you earn.

Class ultimately isn’t about identity, it’s about economic power.

The outlier class is upper class. You can’t earn your way into this class. This is typically hereditary.

I admit I’ve never met the bloke but I would not say that Wayne Rooney is middle class at all, certainly not upper middle class. It’s also about your lifestyle, what you enjoy doing in your free time, what you do for a job. Playing football and being a Wag are not middle class occupations.

The Bbc class decider question thingy asks if you do things like watch sports or go to the ballet/opera. Watch soaps or watch documentaries.

Well this is an interesting point… how others identify you.

Do you think many people would identify a doctor as working class?

The craziest one I ever encountered was a very successful lawyer. Her dad was also a lawyer. She is educated to the hilt, including a very posh girls school in Kent, and at least two degrees. She owns two homes. But she identifies as working class because her grandfather on one side was a miner. Her granddad was working class. Her dad became middle class, and she is solidly middle class. I nearly choked when she told me she's working class! Give me strength!

‘Social class is dependent on education, wealth, occupation, income and culture.‘

You have completely contradicted yourself.

Please do share though the educational, occupational and cultural markers that show that Wayne Rooney is upper middle class.

Depends. How would people initially identify the person if they met them in a non work setting? Would they be surprised to find out they’re a doctor or not surprised?

I gave Sir Paul Nurse as an example
up thread. He is a world leading academic, knighted and has a Nobel prize. The first time I saw him interviewed, I immediately ‘read’ him as working class.

Another example is Alan Johnson was a government minister who was very clearly working class.

Its not a negative judgement it’s just a judgment.

He earned £350k a week, lives in a multi million pound house with staff, children go to top private schools and he hobnobs with the elite on a daily basis. He lives a very privileged existence and works in a unbelievably skilled job.

In other countries he would be upper class, but the UK limits that possibility with our unique class system. In the broadest sense he would be middle class but I would say his daily culture allows him to be defined at the higher end of that MC spectrum.

That would be an example of social mobility across generations

In the broadest sense he would be middle class but I would say his daily culture allows him to be defined at the higher end of that MC spectrum.

personally I picture his daily culture to be sat on the sofa (settee), watching Eastenders, drinking lager while scratching his bollocks. I may well be wrong. 😁

I think it is interesting to note that income and wealth are distinct in the description above.

Being middle class in professional/educational terms no longer generates the same income/wealth benefits it used to. This is getting less clear cut with high student debts etc.

Considering he manages DC United and lives out in the USA, I would say he spends most days managing/training elite athletes on a football pitch.

So the house is money, the staff are money, the schools are money - remove those and you have come up with

’hobnobs with the elite’. Does he? Other than through work which elites is Wayne Rooney socialising with? Certainly my understanding is that he and Coleen have mainly kept local friends fro when they were younger and also spend a lot of time with family.

‘works in an unbelievably skilled job’ or has a talent that he has nurtured. Being incredibly talented is not something that is down to class, people of phenomenal talent can be found in any class.

My MIL is faux mc, her dad was a manual worker and mum a housewife. She’s very plummy, educated to within an inch of her life and will “only consume high culture” so living abroad was never an option because you apparently cant get high culture outside of the UK 🙄. She decided I “must be middle class behind the cheap looking piercings and tattoos” because I played a middle class sport growing up. This weird British obsession with class that really is just snobbery makes me laugh.

I am probably considered middle class but it certainly doesn’t feature in my life as something worthy of discussion or even relevant. What I’m not is a snob.

Rooney is nouveau riche, the middle class never accept them but will go to their parties

You got that right!

That’s his job. Not his free time activities/culture.

Yes, which I think is the family story of many currently middle class people. The middle class has grown, and the working class has shrunk. Obviously the class system has changed considerably over the years too. I actually get very confused by it, and am not totally sure of my own class, as I have such a mixture of background influences and work/life experiences

There were always very poor people considered of high social class, like the character Miss Bates in Emma. Then there are wealthy people not accepted, like John Thornton in North & South.

Class is definitely not just about £££.

He and his wife wield high societal power. On a daily basis, they encounter high society people. You think the parents that they invariably socialise with from their kid’s schools aren’t from high social classes? Being invited to the White House, having dinner with Hollywood stars, meeting the prime minister etc. you think that their new social reality, their new social relations/status, their new economic power isn’t indicative of them moving social class? Just because they’ve retained a scouse accent and friendships from their past, doesn’t negate the fact that their new social/economic reality is very different from that of a working class reality.

It doesn’t take generations to move social class. It can do, but many people are able to change class within their lifetime.

Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. Having enough money to send your kids to an expensive school so they may socialise with other parents does not change their class. Nor does being invited with many others to a White House bash. I’ve had pre polo match lunch with King Charles but that doesn’t make me upper middle class.

All the people who are saying "You can't change your background, it's not just about wealth." No, it's about a multitude of things. Including 'education, wealth, occupation, income and belonging to a particular subculture or social network'.

So if someone goes to university, achieves a medicine degree, works as a doctor, earns a big salary, mixes exclusively in middle/upper middle class circles, fits all the social "middle class" stereotypes regarding behaviour, appearance and lifestyle, and recognises themselves as middle class, you would all still disagree with them on the basis of their childhood? How bizarre.

I'd rather admire him, owning his background and not sweeping it under the carpet.

Putting this together with the other thread you started makes a lot of sense. Just be proud of who you are because believe me trying to pass as something you’re not is almost impossible.

The only exceptions that sometimes seem to be able to circumvent the British class system are some artists and weirdly some members of the military! Wayne Rooney will never be ‘read’ as middle class no matter how much money he has, same for Tyson Fury. I suspect that neither of them would want to be either as they are secure in their own identities.