who is being unreasonable? disabled person 'over sensitive'

[amazeandastonish]

Person A has multiple disabilities and asks if everyone in a group can do something as a reasonable adjustment.
Person B refuses to do so. Person A asks again and explains why adjustment is needed. Person B tells person A they are 'woke', 'over sensitive' and that they (person B) will not be 'dictated to' by someone who doesn't even work here.
Person A complains to me (D&I advisor) and head of HR (my manager).
Neither me, nor manager were present.
Person A is an external disability awareness trainer and the group are a group of staff we had asked them to train on disabilitiy awareness as we had identified a need for it (as you can see!).
We struggled to get sign ups - expecting 30 but only 10 signed up. All other 9 people were positive about the session content.
Head of HR thinks Person A should 'let it go' because we are paying them, they are meant to be teaching us right from wrong, so should have expected that reaction and just dealt with it.
Head of HR thinks Person A was rude to 'single someone out' although neither of us were there to witness it (cause we had 'other things to do' - I did protest!)
I think we should action this but as you can see, my job isn't an easy one!

YABU - the trainer should have expected this / dealt with it themselves
YANBU - the trainer was right to complain and we should do something

The OP has said she wasn’t there so didn’t actually hear the request.

I attended a work training course where the trainer was visually impaired and had limited sight. She asked us to describe what we were wearing so she could gauge where the voice was coming from and identify us. She was amazing at getting peoples names right.

If someone asked you to describe what you are wearing as a reasonable adjustment would you really think that was unreasonable?

So in the scenario I described, young women driving a middle aged man around, (as I was) its completely reasonable him demanding she give him a verbal description of what she looks like? And she should be disciplined for refusing and forced to do so?

Definitely leave the dog alone. Anyone who doesn't realise this (and I remember instinctively knowing this even as a child way back in the seventies) really needs the awareness course.

But the description I'm not sure about. When you present yourself in a room of visually unimpaired people, you (albeit unconsciously) leave it to them to make assessments and assumptions about you with regard to your appearance. But if you are asked to describe yourself, suddenly it's on you to decide what's important for the other person to know. That isn't an easy decision to make and I definitely wouldn't be comfortable with it. But I certainly wouldn't be rude about it.

When you present yourself in a room of visually unimpaired people, you (albeit unconsciously) leave it to them to make assessments and assumptions about you with regard to your appearance. But if you are asked to describe yourself, suddenly it's on you to decide what's important for the other person to know. That isn't an easy decision to make and I definitely wouldn't be comfortable with it.

Massively over thinking it.

I’m stunned people that find it ‘uncomfortable’ to summarise their appearance in a few words function as members of society if I’m honest.

Personally, no. I think they explained that well and asked a measured question. That is not what the OP described their trainer doing, however, though she still need to get witness statements to be clear. There is a vast difference between what your trainer said and a broad 'describe yourself' and people struggling to understand the different impact which those questions might have on people perhaps need to develop more empathy for people.

Indeed.

My parents went through most of their lives not knowing what anyone looked like for themselves, including their own children and grandchildren. It had no impact on them living their lives, other than the inevitable sadness and frustration that visual impairment brings. We described lots of things to my parents in a running commentary, but never/rarely what people looked like. Ocassionally we would describe close family (usually what they were wearing at family weddings etc), but a description of strangers or colleagues wouldn't have been of any help or interest to them.

Are people really struggling to understand that 'uncomfortable' can mean highly anxious? Good god there are some self-absorbed people on here.

Could somebody please explain to how the refusal to supply a physical description of yourself to a blind colleague, prevents them doing their job?

Well, I assume to do one’s job you need to be aware of who your colleagues are - who to ask questions, who to speak to about various matters, hence why they’re colleagues. A physical description for a visually impaired colleague helps with this.

Can you please explain why asking somebody to say ‘I’m Susan, I’m average height with brown hair and glasses and wearing a green t-shirt’ is so unbearably offensive that Susan should refuse to do it even to assist a disabled colleague?

If providing a short description of yourself makes you ‘highly anxious’ then that’s for you to work on as it’s unreasonable. Not for everyone else to tiptoe around it.

I hope your law firm has an employment law department

What a shitty thing to say. You reserve your right not to have to give a moments thought to how you ask someone to describe their physical self in a world which judges people every day against largely unachievable standards of beauty. Whilst people are working on this so you can just do what you want without any regard for others, do you think we should all stay out of the workplace?

Hi, OP, apologies I haven't read the entire thread. Just wanted to say that the organisation Guide Dogs is very helpful and might be willing to provide some additional training around visual disability awareness. This is an area that of course has some interesting legal issues (such as dogs and their handlers being refused entry to shops or taxis) so your colleagues may find it helpful.

Sounds like your colleague behaved appallingly and I can't understand how they are so ignorant and lacking in basic courtesy that their response to being asked to not pet a WORKING assistance dog is to accuse the handler of "being woke"!

Agree. Surely a reasonable adjustment at work for this VI needs would be to provide employess with different coloured tabards to wear in the office, or bold colour name badges (each with a different colour).

But I feel this wasn't person A need for reasonable adjustment, but more their curosity to know more about another person/ as much as they percieved others knew about the other person, and not relevent to their work.

However, it may be that person A was poor at expressing their needs and should have been clearer asking the group to please tell them what colour top they were wearing today in order to help them locate/identify them, and it has all been one big miscommunication.

I've never been asked to describe myself to VI or blind students , perhaps this trainer needed it to help deliver her training better , a reasonable adjustment for her
From just reading what you've written @amazeandastonish B sounds completely unreseptive to it all and was being antagonistic

What a waste of a valuable traing session

If providing a short description of yourself makes you ‘highly anxious’ then that’s for you to work on as it’s unreasonable. Not for everyone else to tiptoe around it.

Bloody hell, talk about hypocrisy. How is it suddenly something to tiptoe around (nasty little expression used in this context) when one is accommodating a person whose impairment may be related to their mental health?

Why the heck would you pat a guide dog when you've been told not to?

It's not really about disability, it's about person B being an arsehole and failing to follow reasonable instructions in a workplace.

It’s not shitty. Nobody’s asking me to say ‘Hi I’m Wouldlove, I’m lanky, have a big nose and a deformity on my insert limb’ which would be accurate.

Instead I would say ‘Hi I’m Wouldlove, I’m tall, with shoulder length fair hair and I’m wearing a black dress’.

People are turning this into a neurotic drama which it simply doesn’t need to be. It’s like some people just cannot bear that another person’s needs are greater than theirs, they always have to find a way to play the victim.

People are turning this into a neurotic drama which it simply doesn’t need to be.

But if someone feels uncomfortable describing themselves they're not being neurotic. It's easy to say people could use other descriptors but the anxiety surrounding that could cause them real issues - feeling like other people are judging what they say etc.

Not giving an accurate description of your actual physical appearance makes the exercise pointless too - because the trainer still won't know what you look like so still won't have a similar experience to everyone else in the room.

We do have disabled people in the organisation but a very small number and we need more. There's a lack of awareness on adjustments etc hence why I wanted this training but getting people to attend, and even getting my manager to let ME attend was near impossible.

Why do you need more?
To use as fodder to train your reluctant and uninterested staff in how to treat others with equity? You expected 30 to sign up and got 9.
What you are looking for is guineapigs to exploit, to use as practise materials.
Your head of HR sounds an appalling liability, their response is from the 1980s.

I’d start with looking at firms that have good practice in the areas you are failing in and look at their policies, workplace accommodations, how equity functions in their firm and the consequences for those members of staff that choose not to give a toss. Then I’d link with one and ask them to support and guide your firm in their journey from from unsatisfactory to at least good.

But if you experience that level of anxiety around your appearance, how do you get a passport photo taken? Tell a nurse your height and weight? Go out and about in general without a bag over your head? People can see what you look like (unless they’re visually impaired that is) so describing yourself is hardly going to shock them.

I suspect some people just aren’t happy with the way they look in general and are trying to turn it into a ‘mental health issue’ to avoid helping their disabled colleagues.

The needs of the visually impaired colleague trump a moment of ‘discomfort’, to me.

Instead I would say ‘Hi I’m Wouldlove, I’m tall, with shoulder length fair hair and I’m wearing a black dress’.

I take your point @Wouldloveanother but I wonder whether that’s of any use or interest to VIP?

What difference does it make to someone who may not have much visual knowledge anyway?

I’ve just come from a 3 day work event where we had to do this in every session (plus pronouns which I utterly refuse). The thing that most people - sighted and non-sighted - comment on with me is my accent. Although totally ethnically Anglo-Welsh, I get the”Where are you from?” question a lit.

For a VIP, who’s major sensory experience of me is my voice, I should probably explain my accent. Although I get so sick and tired of doing that, I’d rather not be compelled.

My main point is- what is of most use to someone who can’t see me? Is it really important they know I have red-blonde hair? Does that have any meaning?

For those of us who are sighted, we take in tiny details of other people - their body shape, their movement, their physical appearance- all the time and we adjust all the time. Saying “I’m mid-height, middle-aged and wearing a floral dress” is nowhere near this sort of minute detail and instinctive responses.

Passport photo, some people will spend a considerable amount of time and money taking and retaking pics until they find one they are comfortable with. Then will never show their passport to anyone other than an official.

Nurses are working in a professional capacity and bound by confedentiality, so very very different to verbalising it to a room full of colleauges.

So both totally irrelevant arguements.

Your looks aren’t a state secret. Your colleagues know what you look like. Verbalising it won’t change anything but will help a disabled colleague. End of, as far as I see it.

You guess wrong. Most training sessions I've been to are not presented in a way that would be a barrier to people with autism. After all, autism is a disability as much as being VI is. It also cant be switched off when it's going to cause an issue. But thankfully most trainers understand this these days. Maybe they had better D&I training.

Your colleagues know what you look like. Verbalising it won’t change anything but will help a disabled colleague. End of, as far as I see it.

If someone said to you "I'm 5ft 6", blonde hair and wearing a green jumper" would you picture someone slim or chunky? Would you picture someone with green eyes or brown? Would you picture someone 20 or 50? I don't see how it helps to give a vague description.