who is being unreasonable? disabled person 'over sensitive'

[amazeandastonish]

Person A has multiple disabilities and asks if everyone in a group can do something as a reasonable adjustment.
Person B refuses to do so. Person A asks again and explains why adjustment is needed. Person B tells person A they are 'woke', 'over sensitive' and that they (person B) will not be 'dictated to' by someone who doesn't even work here.
Person A complains to me (D&I advisor) and head of HR (my manager).
Neither me, nor manager were present.
Person A is an external disability awareness trainer and the group are a group of staff we had asked them to train on disabilitiy awareness as we had identified a need for it (as you can see!).
We struggled to get sign ups - expecting 30 but only 10 signed up. All other 9 people were positive about the session content.
Head of HR thinks Person A should 'let it go' because we are paying them, they are meant to be teaching us right from wrong, so should have expected that reaction and just dealt with it.
Head of HR thinks Person A was rude to 'single someone out' although neither of us were there to witness it (cause we had 'other things to do' - I did protest!)
I think we should action this but as you can see, my job isn't an easy one!

YABU - the trainer should have expected this / dealt with it themselves
YANBU - the trainer was right to complain and we should do something

How difficult is it to find a way to give a physical description that wouldn't make you uncomfortable. Upthread I gave the example of saying something like "I'm average height, blond hair, and I'm wearing a blue jumper". What is uncomfortable about that or a variant of that?

And how does "uncomfortable" trump outright refusal to make an accommodation for disability? I'm sure that the problems that go with being blind are a bit more than "uncomfortable".

‘Their own victimisation’ can you honestly hear yourself? What next, objecting to ordering your lunch verbally because it highlights your allergies? Forbidding people from saying ‘happy birthday’ because it highlights your age? When does this over sensitive madness stop? If our resilience is really this low then it’s no wonder so many people struggle with poor mental health, everything must seem like persecution to them.

And how does "uncomfortable" trump outright refusal to make an accommodation for disability?

It doesn’t but it’s a buzzword quasi-linked to mental health which makes people feel unable to challenge the objective absurdity of whatever it is they’re averse to.

I’ve struggled with MH, but honesty the hyper-sensitivity bordering on paranoia that posters promote as the ‘norm’ on here is so utterly unhealthy

This was a voluntary session. I'm guessing you wouldn't have attended anyway, so the issue wouldn't arise.

It isn’t the case that a tribunal would find the « requests were reasonable ». Nor that they would ever be asked to do so - the trainer has not suffered any loss nor would they be able to claim any as a result of a failure to make a reasonable adjustment. It isn’t a reasonable adjustment case.

No need to prove financial loss to make a disability discrimination claim.

Sounds like the training is much needed, should be extended and mandatory.

Unless you are (a) blind and (b) dong the same job, how can you possibly say what adjustments this person needs to do this specific job?

The fact that you can't work out why this might help a blind person doesn't mean the blind person must be lying.

The problem here is not that person B said nothing, it's that they were outright rude.

Staff member B was totally out of order.

She was clearly told not to distract the dog. It is not a pet or a toy, it is the trainer's ''eyes'' and his support.

Her responses were also aggressive and rude. Describing yourself is simply a reminder that the person you are dealing with cannot bloody see you and needs a bit of help. It does not mean sharing every little details about your body and measurements. A simple, ''I am a tall woman with short hair'' or ''I am a woman wearing a suit'' will do and is hardly invasive.

The trainer is perfectly entitled to make a complaint and I would have a strong word with the staff member.

Frankly as a firm of lawyers you seriously need to address the dinosaur attitude that your team member displayed.

It almost sounds like Person B was being deliberately inflammatory and looking for conflict. They acted unprofessionally and should be followed up with. Those are reasonable adjustments and as a grown adult they shouldn't have needed to have been asked more than once. It sounds like they struggle with the idea of being trained by someone.

@Novum

Yes I know you agree

Was coming off the back of one of your comments around some of these frankly weird posts last night

Patting the guide dog is completely unacceptable....even young children know that!

Being expected to describe yourself, personal choice on the person being asked to do so and I don't think it's an issue in the slightest to say No, it's not relevant to the job and I daresay would make many people uncomfortable to do.

So because the two blind people you've met in the entire worlds population didn't ask for this, it means the trainer was unreasonable for asking.

The fact you've spent most of this thread asking why it's even helpful shows a real lack of imagination and common sense

There have been posts on here by family members of someone who is visually impaired detailing how important shit like this is

But you, and others like you just scroll past those and harp on about 'why is it necessary' 'I'm uncomfortable' 'why does a blind person need to know what I look like'

If a disabled person tells you of a minor thing that would make their lives more equitable, make them feel included and your first reaction is 'no because it makes me uncomfortable' you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror

It depends on the context.

A long term (or intended long term) work mate, I think that's ok, a friend, sure, no problems, random person that you just met or someone you will only be seeing once or twice, I wouldn't like to, No.

I'm genuinely shocked that anyone would think that it is reasonable to distract a working dog. The dog was at work. Not a pet and not to be petted.

As for the other part where someone has to describe themselves, that is usually an icebreaker to get the conversation going and if someone was visually impaired as opposed to someone who had reasonable vision, then it would be a good icebreaker - "I'm blind, can you describe yourself to me or someone like me who can't see what you look like?".

I think Person A is completely unreasonable and should be given a warning. Imagine if Person A had to deal with a client of the Law firm who would be similar to Person B. It doesn't bear thinking about!

I'm going back now to read the other posts that have been made but that's what I got from the first 100 or so posts.

Yes, I absolutely 100% think they were right to complain.

I agree. A potential friend. Someone you will be seeing a lot of. I can understand wanting to know what they look like. At work? My appearance has nothing to do with my job.

They can’t do this any longer! Not in the UK anyway.

If appearance has nothing to do with work, why do so many places of work have dress codes?

I think it was totally unacceptable about patting a working dog and quite frankly if they refused to do this they should be disciplined as regardless of the dog belonging to a guest they were employed by your company and representing your firm at the time.
The describing yourself? Sorry but I would feel uncomfortable with that. As part of disability and discrimination we are taught how we look should not matter we are all equal. But that is not why I would be uncomfortable - I was sexually assaulted by a stranger as a child that I felt targeted me for the way I looked and regardless of whether it makes sense to anyone else I would be very distressed if you asked me to describe myself in public. It would be for me like how I physically looked was more important to someone than who I was as a person and it triggers tears just thinking about being asked to do that - like I was not in control again. Not rational but it is just as it is. Ask me to tell you something about myself - fine.

'I'm guessing she's a Terf'..............I am baffled by this, don't understand at all why you would think that.

Surely it’s just advice though based on her own desires and experiences and she is not speaking for ALL disabled people? I used to work for a charity for blind and visually impaired people in the UK and we were literally never asked to describe ourselves to people and it would have felt really odd for everyone involved if we just described ourselves without being asked? Not ALL blind people require this and it is a bit awkward, Person B was not being unreasonable for not wanting to describe herself. Person B might have personal issues which make her feel uncomfortable to do so - like body dysmorphia or self esteem issues. We can’t just respect SOME people and their wishes while not respected others. Society had gone a bit mad IMO and it’s impossible to please everyone, as this case has shown.

she shouldn’t have petted a dog she was asked not to pet though but that goes for all dogs really. And you would be pretty bloody ridiculous for disciplining a member of staff for petting a dog.

Also, a member of staff doesn’t need to know what their colleague looks like in order to be able to do their job. I have colleagues I haven’t met in person, email works fine, I’m still able to work not knowing whether they have blonde hair or brown, or are slim or overweight? Why does it make a difference?

Is your job delivering training in groups of people F2F?

If not, kindly, it doesn't matter if you think this adjustment isn't necessary

Did you not read my full post?