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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

who is being unreasonable? disabled person 'over sensitive'

609 replies

amazeandastonish · 15/09/2022 18:28

Person A has multiple disabilities and asks if everyone in a group can do something as a reasonable adjustment.
Person B refuses to do so. Person A asks again and explains why adjustment is needed. Person B tells person A they are 'woke', 'over sensitive' and that they (person B) will not be 'dictated to' by someone who doesn't even work here.
Person A complains to me (D&I advisor) and head of HR (my manager).
Neither me, nor manager were present.
Person A is an external disability awareness trainer and the group are a group of staff we had asked them to train on disabilitiy awareness as we had identified a need for it (as you can see!).
We struggled to get sign ups - expecting 30 but only 10 signed up. All other 9 people were positive about the session content.
Head of HR thinks Person A should 'let it go' because we are paying them, they are meant to be teaching us right from wrong, so should have expected that reaction and just dealt with it.
Head of HR thinks Person A was rude to 'single someone out' although neither of us were there to witness it (cause we had 'other things to do' - I did protest!)
I think we should action this but as you can see, my job isn't an easy one!

YABU - the trainer should have expected this / dealt with it themselves
YANBU - the trainer was right to complain and we should do something

OP posts:
Freedomfighters · 18/09/2022 12:34

Sure. But how much if that is alleviated by a brief 2D description of a persons vital statistics.

I already said at maximum it should be clothes colour, if the person has enough useful sight for that to be of use to them.

In other settings, obviously it's nice to know what people actually look like. But it's not going to work in a formal training setting where people don't know each other and don't feel comfortable sharing more detailed information.

ddl1 · 18/09/2022 12:34

Asking for a description isn't requiring a really personal account in this case. It is a person with extremely limited vision asking for cues that may assist them in locating and identifying people. A totally blind person might not be able to use such cues at all (note that most severely visually impaired people are not totally blind); and fully sighted and even many partially sighted people would not need to have them pointed out. But it would be very useful to some people.

Yes, there are genuine reasons why some people might not want to even state their hair colour (surely colour of clothes should not present a difficulty, however). But the fact that B used the term 'woke' here, and that she was so incredibly rude and unco-operative as to persist in patting a working dog, after being asked not to, suggests that she was just being stroppy for the sake of it.

TheWheeledAvenger · 18/09/2022 12:38

Freedomfighters · 18/09/2022 12:34

Sure. But how much if that is alleviated by a brief 2D description of a persons vital statistics.

I already said at maximum it should be clothes colour, if the person has enough useful sight for that to be of use to them.

In other settings, obviously it's nice to know what people actually look like. But it's not going to work in a formal training setting where people don't know each other and don't feel comfortable sharing more detailed information.

But it does work. Like I said, it's the norm within the disability world or in certain industries that regularly work with disabled people (or in industries that would probably be considered "woke")

Starting a meeting with everyone giving a visual description of themselves has been the norm and standard for every meeting I've been in for the past probably five years and I've never seen any issues. Some people give a less detailed description and it's fine.

I think people are just scared because it's unfamiliar to them. If they actually saw it in practice then perhaps they'd be less scared.

ASimpleLampoon · 18/09/2022 12:38

Totally unacceptable. Surprised you even have to ask

Aprilx · 18/09/2022 13:09

WTFNowPeople · 18/09/2022 08:43

Eh? You go for a job interview, a course or on a date and you’re asked “How would you describe yourself?” and that’s rude?? Give me strength!

I have never been asked to describe my physical experience in an interview. And if I were, I would find it very inappropriate and would probably terminate the interview.

Aprilx · 18/09/2022 13:10

*appearance not experience!

deeperthanallroses · 18/09/2022 13:24

Does it really matter whether describing yourself is a highly recommended behaviour? The patting the dog after being told not to should be a formal warning on its own so I’d focus on that and your head of hr is woefully inadequate for the job. I wouldn’t bother getting bogged down in the other detail, you have shitty colleagues and a terrible workplace culture and will progress faster at changing it if you focus on things that are more black and white - low hanging fruit op, tackle the more contested points later when you’ve improved the basics. So maybe 5 years later if you’re lucky.

PaperBlinds · 18/09/2022 14:17

Persistant patting of the service dog is a dick move and not acceptable.
However, public self-description is an example of where attempts at inclusivity/reasonable adjustments challenge problematic attitudes and reactions can cause problems.

Both the request and the discomfort expressed can be reasonable responses and also both true, at the same time. Asking for a description of yourself seems perfectly reasonable to accomodate someone who can see what you look like. But not everyone knows how to respond (or even why it's useful) and some people can't respond without it raising issues for them. All of this depends on how the question was phrased; it was a training event after all, and therefore explaining needs to be part of the process - eg what does that person want to know, what you can usefully or helpfully say, what you might not want to say, how much to say, in order that people can work out something that is both accomodating and helpful, and comfortable for all parties). Of course if all this was done, and Person B reacted the same way, they are being a PITA and clearly don't want to get it.

It is a new thing for a lot of people, and the whole point of training is to address ignorance, inform and improve skills. The attitude that "everyone should know this" is naive. While personally I think Person B is both a dick and holds some probably quite ill-considered views, aren't they exactly the person the training is aimed at? Helping them see how to behave in a non-discrimintory way, possibly to find a middle-way through their issue about self-description (which maybe not about bloody-mindedness or predjudice, but about fear and anxiety). Disability awareness training isn't about already knowing what is best thing to do or there wouldn't be much point and you wouldn't have called anyone in to do it.

I think it is really hard to do any kind of EDI training and especially if you have lived experience of the protected characteristics too, and a trainer should have the support, strategies and protection of their own, and that of the company if they feel threatened or discriminated against. Did you not get a set of ground rules and expectations for the session?

I have seen trainers leave a session for a break, opt out of session until the work until the group addresses some of the issues arising themselves, refuse to work with cetain companies and all of these are reasonable self-protections and can actually be a very effective tool in training. It's exhausting and not very rewarding work. But at the same time the point is to deal with the problematic attitudes as they arise. If the trainer felt Person B's behaviour was beyond their acceptable boundaries, then they need to be listened to, but perhaps they might be able to suggest how this might be dealt with? if Person B is clearly not open to the training, that needs addressing - but at a "this is what this company believes and this what is expected in your role" level.

I also think that EDI training should be required (for everyone including all senior and executive staff) and should be part of corporate strategy. It isn't a bolt-on or optional if you feel like it, or a sticking plaster. I am slightly concerned that neither you nor the head of HR were at the event to mediate/observe. Had steps been taken to look at risks for trainer and staff or take the temperature (clearly cool to luke warm by the up take numbers) or to thoroughly investigate what the trainer was going to do or say and if they were a good fit for where your company is actually at, at this point. Training resulting in a complaint of this kind suggests that none of this was worked out before the session took place and that a lot more work is needed by the company and it's unfair to any trainer you employ, until this is done.

I feel like both Person A and B have been set up to fail here - not necessarily your fault - but working in a company that isn't actually interesting or embracing this work is a hiding to nothing.

Freedomfighters · 18/09/2022 14:23

Starting a meeting with everyone giving a visual description of themselves has been the norm and standard for every meeting I've been in for the past probably five years and I've never seen any issues. Some people give a less detailed description and it's fine.

That just isn't true. It may be what you do, but asking for a physical description just isn't the norm. You're not the only person who works / lives / moves in this world you know.

WTFNowPeople · 18/09/2022 14:59

Aprilx · 18/09/2022 13:09

I have never been asked to describe my physical experience in an interview. And if I were, I would find it very inappropriate and would probably terminate the interview.

That’s my point! You probably have been asked to describe yourself and your answer will be what is appropriate depending upon who’s asking the question. In an interview you would describe yourself professionally, on this course person A would demonstrate what they mean by using themselves as an example. I cannot understand why everyone is up in arms about giving a description of themselves to someone partially sighted, they seem to forget that everyone else in the room can see them warts and all. That doesn’t mean make people say anything that they don’t want to just that it might be a big thing to you but generally everyone else isn’t that invested.

Freedomfighters · 18/09/2022 15:15

I cannot understand why everyone is up in arms about giving a description of themselves to someone partially sighted

Then maybe you should read the thread. You might be ok with it. Not everyone is comfortable with that, clearly, and not do they have to be.
No doubt most people would be willing to give clothing colour if they knew why it was necessary. But, whilst it might be nice for the person with a VI to have a physical description of the people they are working with, it isn't actually necessary in order for them to carry out their job. And as it clearly oversteps the boundaries for a lot of people, then compromise will have to be made between what may be nice, and what is actually necessary. The EA is supposed to foster good relationships between those with a protected characteristic and those without. Insisting that people are put on the spot to physically describe themselves over and above the colour of their clothes clearly is not fostering good relationships.

WTFNowPeople · 18/09/2022 18:33

Freedomfighters · 18/09/2022 15:15

I cannot understand why everyone is up in arms about giving a description of themselves to someone partially sighted

Then maybe you should read the thread. You might be ok with it. Not everyone is comfortable with that, clearly, and not do they have to be.
No doubt most people would be willing to give clothing colour if they knew why it was necessary. But, whilst it might be nice for the person with a VI to have a physical description of the people they are working with, it isn't actually necessary in order for them to carry out their job. And as it clearly oversteps the boundaries for a lot of people, then compromise will have to be made between what may be nice, and what is actually necessary. The EA is supposed to foster good relationships between those with a protected characteristic and those without. Insisting that people are put on the spot to physically describe themselves over and above the colour of their clothes clearly is not fostering good relationships.

thi is how I ended the PP that the quote is taken from:

That doesn’t mean make people say anything that they don’t want to just that it might be a big thing to you but generally everyone else isn’t that invested.

I’m not saying that anyone has to say something that they don’t want to and I’m sure person A doesn’t want to either.

GerronBuzanDoThaWomwok · 18/09/2022 20:30

TheWheeledAvenger · 18/09/2022 11:37

What on EARTH are you talking about?

I've never, ever "denied" using the phrase disabled company, I've said a million times that disabled company is very common and MY and others choice of term.

Why are you so outraged and furious that an actual disabled person uses the language of their own choosing?

Why are you so obsessed with word policing, censoring disabled people's language, and making ad hominem attacks on them when they do not comply?

I suggest you look at your own post - you seem to have forgotten that the phrases "word-policing" and "censorious" are your own words.

LakieLady · 18/09/2022 20:50

Nat6999 · 15/09/2022 19:08

Training should have been mandatory for all staff not voluntary.

I agree. And it is in the organisation I work for. Making it mandatory would be a good idea, especially for those who appoint staff.

And this is a good example of why:

Why is it ‘inclusive’ to describe your appearance? Would you describe what you look like to someone on the end of a phone?

I'm amazed it is necessary for anyone to point out that being VI does not disadvantage someone during telephone communication. The playing field is level.

Person B is an arsehole and rude with it. Their behaviour shows that they need the training more than most, and paints the organisation in a very bad light. They would get at least a pretty good talking to if they worked where I work.

Icanstillrecallourlastsummer · 20/09/2022 09:17

amazeandastonish · 16/09/2022 15:54

Hi all, I wasn't expecting so many replies and sorry I haven't read them all.

I did some more investigating today and spoke to other participants.

They confirmed that B said and did what A complained about.

Acorrding to other participants:
A introduced themselves and their dog. Explained visually impaired with some residual sight. Vision is blurry but they can see colours.
A asked people politely not to pet dog and explained it could be a safety concern if they did that. A asked people to describe either their hair colour or clothing colour and said this was to help her distinguish between people. Apparently A said "if you don't mind" so there was a recognition in that, I think, that not everyone may want to do so.
Other participants felt embarrassed by B although one of those other participants said "maybe she felt singled out".

I have emailed this feedback to head of HR again (who is not in the office today) and she is going to speak to B but I don't know how that will go or if head of HR will do anything other than that. I fear it might be just to be seen to be doing something.

What a huge drip feed. Don't you think it would have made sense to give this detail much much earlier on?

BirdinaHedge · 20/09/2022 11:00

A asked people to describe either their hair colour or clothing colour and said this was to help her distinguish between people.

This is hugely different from the random "Give a visual description of yourself"

TheCatterall · 20/09/2022 11:16

Person B is an utter arsehole.

regardless of person As employment status - Person B was representing your company. Their behaviour was unprofessional and their language and attitude was disrespectful and rude.

would it be ok to treat a paying client like this?

would it be ok if if was a senior manager or partner.

no no no.

if the press got hold of this how well do you think your law firm would come out of it. You’d be slaughtered in the press and your reputation would nosedive and this would tar the companies reputation permanently.

if this isn’t dealt with properly and person B given a formal warning then I hope the trainer goes public with her experience.

StarbucksSmarterSister · 20/09/2022 11:24

Apparently the other participant thinks B may have felt singled out because A told her several times to stop petting the dog.

So, her own fault then. She sounds awful.

Iwanttoholdyourham · 20/09/2022 19:24

BirdinaHedge · 20/09/2022 11:00

A asked people to describe either their hair colour or clothing colour and said this was to help her distinguish between people.

This is hugely different from the random "Give a visual description of yourself"

Agreed - this is a much less intrusive request, and had the OP said this upfront, there would have been very different responses.

TheWheeledAvenger · 21/09/2022 18:59

Freedomfighters · 18/09/2022 14:23

Starting a meeting with everyone giving a visual description of themselves has been the norm and standard for every meeting I've been in for the past probably five years and I've never seen any issues. Some people give a less detailed description and it's fine.

That just isn't true. It may be what you do, but asking for a physical description just isn't the norm. You're not the only person who works / lives / moves in this world you know.

Excuse me are you accusing me of lying, simply because my personal experience happens to be difference from you?

Or are you simply so small-minded that you can't conceive of anyone having different experiences from you.

I assure you, that is the norm within my own industry.

I suggest you look at your own post - you seem to have forgotten that the phrases "word-policing" and "censorious" are your own words.

Ummm yes?? Obviously??? Not sure why you felt the need to quote my own post to "remind" me that... my own post is my own post??? Not sure why you think I have "forgotten" my own post??

I repeat: the word policing and censorship that disabled people have been subject to on this thread, for having the audacity to use the terms of our own preference, is vile and abusive. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Clearly there is a lot of hatred and resistance to disabled people who refuse to be bullied into silence.

TheWheeledAvenger · 21/09/2022 19:01

Oh and I've never said what industry I work in, so people claiming I must be lying about the way my company does things because it's not the way their company does things: do you not realise that makes you look not very bright?

Freedomfighters · 21/09/2022 20:23

You do seem to be a very angry ranty person. Go and get yourself a glass of wine or something. And chill out.

Strawberrydelight78 · 15/02/2023 23:42

YANBU People should have a little more empathy.

Strawberrydelight78 · 15/02/2023 23:47

It's well known you should never pet a working dog. When they are being petted they're mind isn't on the job. It's not unreasonable to be expected to describe appearance to visually impaired. If anyone follows Sarah Millican she gives a visual discriotion of her pics. Which is really considerate and often gets complimented on it in the comments. Some by visually impaired themselves.

JudgeRudy · 16/02/2023 00:48

I'd imagine 'interferring' with the dog is the same as interferring with someone's wheelchair. Completely out of order. Forget disability, would you go and fiddle about with someone's pens or glasses. It's unrelavant if harm was caused.
Describe yourself....hmm I think if someone didn't want to you should move on. I don't think a blind person has an automatic right to know what to look like or think/say what you look like.
I think the company should apologise if someone has repeatedly touch the dog. I also think what theyve said is a little rude, however I'd like statements from everyone ndcreview the ehidence before I made any judgement.