republicans, over here!

[arghpleasestop]

OK, it's been 24 hours now.

Can I say it yet?

Long live the king - any king! - you must be joking. How on earth can it be the 21st century and there is still a hereditary monarchy of 'special people with the right blood' who wear crowns, live in palaces and play a formal role in politics?

I can see from other threads that others feel upset and are following it all closely. This thread is not to deny those feelings and for sure Queen E worked hard shaking hands for a long time - but to say, WTF, bring on the republic please.

[Discovereads]

@cakeorwine

The way our country is actually run by Parliament and the MPs wouldn’t change a bit. You’d see no difference whatsoever

I think we might see some more control when the PM goes rogue.

No you wouldn’t because the PM would be the head of state.

[WoodlandMummy]

Look at how fucked up the US is, republic, how fucked up China is, republic, how fucked up Russia is, also a republic Mexico, a republic also fucked up

We can all cherry pick unstable, volatile counties to suit our agenda, it’s a nonsense argument. Just look at how fucked up Saudi is! Conversely, Switzerland, the most stable and safe country in the world is a federal republic. Germany, another very stable country, fed republic, Finland, v safe, stable / progressive country, republic. You mention Mexico, well Thailand is considered less politically stable, so again, your argument is pointless.

[Discovereads]

And it will now be considered distasteful to want the government to keep fixing the energy crisis (something that does actually affect all of our daily lives) so we’ll continue to be screwed over the next 2 weeks
Thats not true, it’s already been announced there will be no delay.

[Festoonlights]

I understand why people feel they shouldn’t have such privilege.

Certainly the clingers need to be removed. Andrew and family and all the second tier downwards all need to go. It is helpful Harry left when he did. A very small unit of royalty is in my view, and asset, it draws many millions to the country - it offers continuity and supports the country’s infrastructure - respect for political parties and authority has waned to such a degree - I do feel an additional layer is helpful for stability.

I am willing to accept and support a very small RF but nothing more.

[Discovereads]

@WoodlandMummy

Look at how fucked up the US is, republic, how fucked up China is, republic, how fucked up Russia is, also a republic Mexico, a republic also fucked up

We can all cherry pick unstable, volatile counties to suit our agenda, it’s a nonsense argument. Just look at how fucked up Saudi is! Conversely, Switzerland, the most stable and safe country in the world is a federal republic. Germany, another very stable country, fed republic, Finland, v safe, stable / progressive country, republic. You mention Mexico, well Thailand is considered less politically stable, so again, your argument is pointless.

My point was that a republic isn’t the guaranteed solution that would result in an awesome government. I don’t have an agenda of saying a republic cannot work, it could. It’s just not the utopia many posters are making it out to be. There are many options out there and the focus on how a republic is 100% the best way to rule a country is blind faith imho because a republic is not perfect and many countries are fucked up both in getting to one and in how they operate as one,

[user1496146479]

@Legrandsophie

@cakeorwine

And Ireland becoming a republic was a blood free process was it?

I love the cloud cuckoo land republicans live in. It is so historically rosy tinted and fact lite.

Here’s a fact- in the real world the end of the monarchy would mean the short tears selling off of royal assets (they privately own quite chunk of it so would be keeping it) to the highest bidder.

In twenty years time we’d find we dismantled something we couldn’t afford to re-buy and there would still be a billionaire living in Windsor. Except they’d be a tech billionaire who would have no public interest in keeping it for the nation.

And of course what we need right now is another divise referendum and at total rewriting of our constitution, including all our rights. I suppose there might be a few things that Brexit hasn’t wrecked that we could still fuck up for ideological purposes.

What would any of this achieve expect making the people who hate monarchy feel better?

Maybe if England has left Ireland alone there wouldn't have been so much blood shed!!
Cause & effect!

[MrsGluck]

Thank goodness for this thread!

I agree about the enforced sadness. I have a funeral to go to this week for a family friend. I want to feel sad for that person and their family. That's enough for me.

If others want to be sad about Elizabeth, that's up to them. Leave me out of it.

[cakeorwine]

Open/close Parliament also not a power, but a ceremonial function. They can’t even write their own speech. The government in power writes it and they read it

Patronising - obviously the party writes the speech.

What would happen if the Monarch did not turn up to open Parliament? What if there was no permission to close Parliament?

Is that written down somewhere?

he monarch doesn’t have the power to sign off on laws…look how how royal assent actually works. They cannot refuse assent against the advice of Parliament and Parliament by sending an Act for royal assent is de facto advising this law should be passed. Royal assent is a ceremonial rubber stamp

What would happen if they did not give Royal Assent? Is that written down somewhere?

Just a Wikipedia example from recent history

"In 1914, George V took legal advice on withholding royal assent from the Government of Ireland Bill; then highly contentious legislation that the Liberal government intended to push through Parliament by means of the Parliament Act 1911. He decided to not withhold assent without "convincing evidence that it would avert a national disaster, or at least have a tranquillising effect on the distracting conditions of the time"."

[Lunar270]

@Discovereads

@Lunar270
The monarchy PR machine is relatively new, if you're familiar with history. Till then I'm not sure what you'd call it but was closer to facism than a democracy.

You’re obviously not familiar with history nor the definition of fascism. The idea that the monarch is there with a noblesse oblige purpose towards the populace has been around since 1381 when the monarchy curbed the greed of the landowners and enacted reforms after the Wat Tyler rebellion.

This is separate from type of governance as prior to 1215 it was an absolute monarchy (not “fascism”!). After 1215 and the Magna Carta we evolved quite quickly into a constitutional monarchy with a Parliament the monarch had to defer to during the reign of Edward I in around 1272. That’s why we have no set codified constitution because it’s evolved over a millennium with many Acts of Parliament.

In so far as “democracy” goes well..you can have a democracy without universal suffrage. The Athenians didn’t have universal suffrage and they invented democracy. Most people unfamiliar with democracy thinks it means every adult gets a vote- it doesn’t. And for much of our history as a democracy we didnt have universal suffrage- we’ve had it for less than 100yrs.

Facism:
a political system headed by a dictator in which the government controls business and labor and opposition is not permitted

It wasn't that long ago, relatively speaking, that the monarchy ruled England and dominated politics. Opposition was not permitted either, not without conflict. I didn't say it was facism but was closer to that than democracy.

For aeons, the monarchy ruled everyday life until they gave up power to parliament and the gradual shift to the democracy we have today.

[cakeorwine]

@Discovereads

No you wouldn’t because the PM would be the head of state.

No

The Head of State would be the Head of State.

The PM would be the PM

[arghpleasestop]

For sure there are dangers in replacing the monarchy with figureheads, elected presidents, written constitutions etc. There will never be unanimous agreement on this. I feel there are plenty of ideas out there and we can think of something.

This thread has partly made me realise - with all the references to other countries , Ireland etc - that whilst at one level I just instinctively don't want to bow down to a king because of every egalitarian reason PPs have said - at another level it's about what Britain actually is in the modern global world.

All these bits of black and white film of a rather beautiful looking Queen riding about on elephants has made me think ... is the British Empire over or not? Obvs I want to the UK to have influence in the world and be respected - but it doesn't have to be figureheaded by the royal family

[WoodlandMummy]

@MrsGluck

Thank goodness for this thread!

I agree about the enforced sadness. I have a funeral to go to this week for a family friend. I want to feel sad for that person and their family. That's enough for me.

If others want to be sad about Elizabeth, that's up to them. Leave me out of it.

And me. Leave me well out of it. I work for an international firm and keep receiving emails from overseas colleagues offering me their sincere condolences. Why? She wasn’t my granny, I’d never ever met her

I have friends getting married this weekend. Well that’s their beautifully planned wedding day royally screwed. They had already had to cancel three bloody times due to covid.

[Festoonlights]

I do not have a great deal of trust that the PM/President role wouldn’t be abused in time (like Trump, Putin, Hitler) Even someone like Jeremy Corbyn is a pretty terrifying prospect to most of us.

We could in the future find ourselves in a the hideous position of having no greater authority than someone extremely destructive, dangerous and impossible to remove. Politics has become so polarised, and quite frankly increasingly rabid, for me having a monarch and PM keeps both roles in check. A counter balance and deference to the other. It is the balance that has worked for a very very long time for this country and it gives many millions the confidence of a stable and peaceful nation.
Stable nations attract international investors and wealth, and remain prosperous and comfortable places to live.

On balance this is far more important to me than the money we would save ( which would be eaten up anyway) the RF.can and should offer value for money, be mindful to become as small as possible whilst offering stability, history and comfort at times of need.

[cakeorwine]

This thread has partly made me realise - with all the references to other countries , Ireland etc - that whilst at one level I just instinctively don't want to bow down to a king because of every egalitarian reason PPs have said - at another level it's about what Britain actually is in the modern global world

THIS.

I

[maeveiscurious]

@cakeorwine

This thread has partly made me realise - with all the references to other countries , Ireland etc - that whilst at one level I just instinctively don't want to bow down to a king because of every egalitarian reason PPs have said - at another level it's about what Britain actually is in the modern global world

THIS.

I

Well we aren't bowing down, we are acknowledging centuries of history and we agree to the figurehead.

I think the Americans have their president and fabulous if you have Obama, but we could end up with a show like Trump. Canada have already said they want to stay in the Commonwealth. As they was to be VERY different to their neighbours.

[maeveiscurious]

@arghpleasestop

For sure there are dangers in replacing the monarchy with figureheads, elected presidents, written constitutions etc. There will never be unanimous agreement on this. I feel there are plenty of ideas out there and we can think of something.

This thread has partly made me realise - with all the references to other countries , Ireland etc - that whilst at one level I just instinctively don't want to bow down to a king because of every egalitarian reason PPs have said - at another level it's about what Britain actually is in the modern global world.

All these bits of black and white film of a rather beautiful looking Queen riding about on elephants has made me think ... is the British Empire over or not? Obvs I want to the UK to have influence in the world and be respected - but it doesn't have to be figureheaded by the royal family

Also Macron summed it up

We lost "our Queen", the world lost "THE Queen".

The word loves our royal family

[Festoonlights]

I think the terrible scenes with Trump refusing to go, and protesters running riot in Washington, Biden not able to string together even a single sentence made me realise just how fragile the US set up is, and others countries like it.

I am deeply uncomfortable with the prospect of having just a PM role and a puppet head of state with no real power. It is a disturbing prospect given how fractured countries can be - and there is no one anywhere that can say with any degree of confidence that we wouldn’t one day have a Trump of our own, beholden to no one and they could ruin our country. No thank you.

This thread has made me realise how important it is to have a proper head of state.

[cakeorwine]

@Festoonlights

I think the terrible scenes with Trump refusing to go, and protesters running riot in Washington, Biden not able to string together even a single sentence made me realise just how fragile the US set up is, and others countries like it.

I am deeply uncomfortable with the prospect of having just a PM role and a puppet head of state with no real power. It is a disturbing prospect given how fractured countries can be - and there is no one anywhere that can say with any degree of confidence that we wouldn’t one day have a Trump of our own, beholden to no one and they could ruin our country. No thank you.

This thread has made me realise how important it is to have a proper head of state.

What would happen if the PM refused to step down?

Or the party in Government refused to leave?

[cakeorwine]

A Head of State - like other modern countries have - would have the power given to them in the Constitution to ensure the Constitution was followed.

Ireland is interesting

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Ireland

[cakeorwine]

Also Macron summed it up
We lost "our Queen", the world lost "THE Queen".
The word loves our royal family

Do you think the same will be said about Charles? Or William?

[maeveiscurious]

@Festoonlights

I think the terrible scenes with Trump refusing to go, and protesters running riot in Washington, Biden not able to string together even a single sentence made me realise just how fragile the US set up is, and others countries like it.

I am deeply uncomfortable with the prospect of having just a PM role and a puppet head of state with no real power. It is a disturbing prospect given how fractured countries can be - and there is no one anywhere that can say with any degree of confidence that we wouldn’t one day have a Trump of our own, beholden to no one and they could ruin our country. No thank you.

This thread has made me realise how important it is to have a proper head of state.

Also not to have a baboon

All the previous Prime Ministers have said, they appreciated and valued the meeting they had with the Queen. Everyday she worked and went through the countless boxes of information regarding the Crown and State. Her Father's health was severely affected the War and he involved the Queen from a young age and impressed the responsibility of the Crown.

King Charles and Prince William have watched their Queen devote her life to that State and commonwealth. King Charles is an environmentalist, worldly compassionate man. He has dedicated his life to this role and it comes with a burden.

We should celebrate our new King and the life our Queen

[maeveiscurious]

@cakeorwine

Also Macron summed it up
We lost "our Queen", the world lost "THE Queen".
The word loves our royal family

Do you think the same will be said about Charles? Or William?

Yes they have dedicated their lives.

[sammylady37]

Also Macron summed it up


We lost "our Queen", the world lost "THE Queen".


The word loves our royal family

I don’t know why Macron thinks he can speak for the world. I personally know nobody who loves or even respects your royal family.

[cakeorwine]

King Charles and Prince William have watched their Queen devote her life to that State and commonwealth. King Charles is an environmentalist, worldly compassionate man. He has dedicated his life to this role and it comes with a burden

Not allowed to express his views anymore.

A God given right to rule is not the best system of democracy.

[maeveiscurious]

@sammylady37



"I don’t know why Macron thinks he can speak for the world. I personally know nobody who loves or even respects your royal family."

I wouldn't go on the internet or watch tv as you will have a real issue with your grip on reality