To think skin colour matters WAY more than people like to admit

[daysayso]

I am involved in marketing campaigns - I won't say what because it's outing but let's say I recently worked on a campaign where the service being provided had absolutely nothing to do with race (so it wasn't makeup or hair for example).

Yet the vast majority that responded were people of colour (Same as the person featured in the ad) and it made me think how much your life chances are still dictated by your skin colour.

People like to consider race more than they like to admit even in spaces where it has nothing to do with anything, people just seem to feel more 'comfortable' with their own.

I felt for the first time in a long time my success will in part depend on my skin colour because for whatever reason the majority of white people that saw this ad decided it wasn't for them on the basis I'm someone of colour.

Please no arguments I'm looking for a mature conversation and if you find the topic sensitive you need not respond

Just looking for others experiences really

Simply put CRT presents the idea that all inequalities experienced by POC are down to their skin colour and all white people no matter what desperate circumstances they live in are privileged and will always be elevated in some way because of the colour of their skin.

Unfortunately that's where your assessment/interpretation falls apart. There's no wonder why you don't agree with it but is typical and quite common.

Privilege doesn't literally mean that white people are privileged in the sense that you're elevated above every race, irrespective of your social status. It simply means that there is a hierarchy of races and as the default (white) you won't be subjected to the same racial experiences. There are aspects of life that you won't have to think about. This puts you (racially) in a more beneficial situation.

We can get into the rich black man vs poor white man but like for like, the black person will generally be worse off. It's not a difficult concept to understand and is independent of UK or USA attitudes to racism.

You believe that there is a hierarchy of races?

I’ve heard it all now. Tell me, though, in this hierarchy of yours, who do you personally place at the top?

Look, humans are tribal..we form tribes instinctively. It's really very few generations ago that we jealously guarded our tribal territories against "The Other". Anyone different was by definition a threat. Coulrophobia (fear of clowns, apparently common among young children), is part of the same instinct - "The Other", wearing some kind of disguise, or threatening marking - just as our instinct is to fear brightly-coloured snakes. Different, unfamiliar appearance has always triggered defence mode in humans, be it colour, disability, disfigurement. Hence poor old women, with the marks of age and poverty could easily be seen as witches. Traditionally, even men with less than perfect bodies were forbidden from being ordained into the church. We have to overcome this instinct to live in a multi-cultural, multi-human-in-all-its-forms society.

I agree that it matters OP.

I think a lot of the effect you witnessed is down to entrenched habit and can be broken reasonably easily. The last 4ish years of US TV and film have seen a sudden explosion of people of colour playing characters that previously would have defaulted to white and making up crowd scenes and supporting characters that previously would have been expected to be white (especially in historical dramas). And it hasn’t caused the world to collapse or even messed with viewers’ suspension of disbelief. It’s just made the stories look more diverse. This is down, in part, to the inclusion riders that McDermond was talking up at the Oscars in 2018.

I think in advertising there’s something similar - a bit of a language with skin colour. And people are used to the message that advertising with people of colour is for things not aimed at white people. But if established brands with a large white customer base start to use more diverse people in their advertising, like many of the media programs have started to, that’s going to fall away.

Hopefully that will be part of a virtuous spiral that feeds into many other ways people can consciously evaluate messages, situations and people on the basis of skin colour and will be a part of destroying racism in the West. Obviously it’s only one small bit and pretty superficial in many ways, but the lack of people of colour in things aimed at white people sets up significant barriers where white people think they aren’t being racist but still act in ways that make race matter when it shouldn’t. So breaking that down could be significant.

Well, there are white people and then there are the other white people.
I come from one of the "third world" white countries.
None of my ancestors would have benefited from slavery. No one has given me the "white privilege" card either.

My English white male husband has had to call to arrange my Doctor's appointments - I call (none available), he calls straight after (pick your time mate).

I get "racially" profiled and pigeon-holed all the time.

As a result, the white privilege debate leaves me particularly uneasy and stops me from engaging in the wider race-issues conversation. The pudding has been over-egged for me.

I don't really think you can conclude much from your one example OP. There are too many confounding factors.

It wouldn't surprise me if some campaigns that seem to be targeted to particular people tend to get responses from those people at a higher rate, but I don't know how general that is. If a McDonald's ad shows people of a certain ethnicity, will it really attract more of those people?

And I also think that it could make a difference how used people were to seeing ads depicting different kinds of people in general. If there are a lot it may matter less.

As far as whether skin colour matters more than people like to admit, it really will depend on who you ask I guess. Ta-Nahisi Coates or Larry Eldar? Overall I think how much money people have counts for more than almost anything else.

Also, coming from a marketing/media agency background:
The ads we DO see are targeted to be seen (or not seen).
I won't see Asian skincare ads because it's not within the information that the search engines hold on me.
In fact, it's enough for the powers of the Web to identify me as white and I'll barely get any content by black YouTube or TikTok creators.

The game is rigged before we even get to the game. There's a high chance white people didn't respond to the ad because they didn't get to see it.

Eastern Europeans really don’t fit the woke hierarchy. It’s why they hate us.

Another issue is that Western culture particularly American insists on seeing people as individuals instead of their community background. (unless you’re woke)

it’s a good mindset for business or any other matter that involves cooperation between multiple ethnicities/races but ignores totally obvious group/ethnic dynamics and would even go so far as asserting they don’t exist! Because to admit group differences would lead to judging individuals by their groups, which would lead to some dark places. So you may as well go with the fiction that group difference doesn’t matter or that group difference is solely the result of ‘racism’ by white people

It is hard to discuss without knowing the product or the advert really.

And as Queen Camilla rightly points out, some of us won't see a certain advertising campaign at all - I don't watch adverts on tv, I don't read paper magazines, I don't drive through anywhere I can see advertising boards much (well I haven't seen one for at least the last 9 months).
I don't listen to live radio that has advertising.

So the only advertising I see is that which the likes of Facebook, instagram, tiktok and mumsnet and a few web based computer games serve at me.

That adverting is heavily tailored to what I have talked about or looked for online recently (currently, scroll saws and robot vacuums, I lead such an exciting life).

I don't think that the skin colour of whoever is in the advert would determine whether the product or service was 'for me' or not (but can we ever be truly aware of our own biases?).

But .. I am a fat, disabled, woman who is 42.. and white, and those three/four things ahead of 'white' define me far more than my colour - so when I am looking at advertising, its those things I am thinking of more.

When I go out in public, it is the first three that people see and judge me on most (again... I think!).

As far as white privilege goes - I think it is possible for privilege in one area to be trumped by other factors.

I've absolutely been discriminated against and denied opportunities due to my size, gender, disability, northern accent, poor economic status (variously I am of course a greedy disgusting pig with no self control, idle, lazy, have brought it all upon myself, am evidently stupid and weak, poorly educated and no ability to manage my own finances, probably spent it all on cake...).

That in real terms means I have been spat at and abused in the street (multiple occasions beyond count, spanning almost 30 years), had neighbours start petitions about me to get me evicted, been accused of thefts, had my flat raided and searched following a break in at a local shop that was in fact reported to the police BY ME, because I was seen at the scene... and was poor and living in supported housing so obviously a criminal)... the list goes on and on.

So I can understand that some people may well feel like white privilege doesn't exist... it possibly doesn't for them, in that moment - but that doesn't really matter... the fact it exists for the vast majority, thats an issue.

I can well believe Sarah0611 is indeed “mixed race” and I just knew her Dad would be of black origin and mum would be white- explains her responses really. Hate tio generalise but I have often found a big difference in the attitudes of mixed-race people dependent on which parent is black.

How so ?

Yes they do. Look on the Black Mumsnetters threads. I'm going to compare with the White Mumsnetters threads ...

Of course it matters and makes a difference. People, and research know this. Ethnicity creates so many barriers to all things and the experiences people of colour have (using that as my preferred word as a Black woman). It’s probably surprising to White people (@daysayso I’m assuming you’re White) and it’s not unconscious bias, it’s representation. See yourself to be yourself - you can’t become what you can’t see. Simple.

Anxietyridenz are you confusing coloured (racist) with person of colour? In my experience person of colour is used by a lot of black people and is particularly favoured in the US but also very commonly used here. It's considered better than BAME isn't it?

I think that it is impossible to respond the the OP without knowing about the service being offered and what the marketing was for. This whole thread has been dominated by the theme of not making assumptions and yet we are being asked to makes guesses and presumptions about why people who chose an unidentified service did so.

The example of the doctor needing to research how to treat illness in black patients is a very bad example. If the doctor does do his research, and thinks he's aware of different presentations, are we going to say 'You still shouldn't be allowed to treat black people because you won't have done your research properly?'

With attitudes, it seems that you can never rid yoursel

Some white people think that they have done research and found out about white privilege and how people say it has impacted their experience. There is always more work that they can do. However, unlike a GP who would eventually be allowed to treat black people ( possibly after being tested on how well he's absorbed training), white people are never going to reach the position of not having a racist outlook. This is what it seems some posters are saying.

If your job is in HR, your training in equality must be updated frequently. If you lecture and teach other people about how discrimination works, you must surely have to be reading every new research paper and survey which comes out, and on a daily basis. If you are a regular person going about their day, isn't it enough to decide that colour is irrelevant, and that you are going to embrace and enjoy an interaction with another human being - treating them the way in which you would like to be treated yourself?

Does it mean that it is never going to be safe to accept a white person as a friend, if you yourself are not white?

In the past, it's been explained on Mumsnet that marrying a black person and bearing mixed race children does not mean that you are unlikely to be racist. In spite of choosing to intertwine your life with a black person, you can still be a racist, so it has been said on other threads. I really don't get this.

To me, what you consciously do is an important indicator of what your moral integrity is like. If you consciously set out to treat someone as no different to you then that is positive. Surely that genuineness must come across to the person you are speaking to? . Your behaviours will be impacted by unconscious bias, but the fact that you have determined to treat everybody the same, regardless of race is genuine and what you consciously do, is the most important thing - in my book.

Is there another theme at work? Are we saying that white people by merit of their experience and culture are always going to be seeking to impose their interests unfairly - metaphorically undermining and pushing down others, because, historically, white cultures have evolved to do this, whereas other cultures are more genuine, and seeking of harmony? Is the argument a cultural one?

I also thought the whole point in advertising is the you use someone in the ad that your target market identifies with/the product is aimed at? For example you wouldn't have a granny advertising a kids toy ,(although the granny may buy it) she isn't the target market of the product. So using a black person will attract more black people. Isn't the whole point in those ads where there is someone from every race, disabled, pregnant used so there's someone everyone will identify with eg an NHS poster?

I can only speak from a personal point of view. My best friend as a child was a girl of Indian heritage - second generation. I immediately connected with her because she sounded just like me, we liked the same interests/sports/toys and we were culturally the same. She grew up on a similar houses, our parents had similar values and I didn’t even notice her colour as a child. She didn’t even notice either until she was much much older.
It’s much easier to identify with someone that is similar to you culturally - in that sense skin colour is irrelevant.

But a lot less exhausting than facing prejudice on a daily basis.

i think the OP had a point - I used to work for a certain national charity ages ago and was working with the marketing team to place newspaper adds. I was told ‘you can’t use X ad in the daily mail, the family featured is black and it won’t generate any cash’. For various reasons I overrode that decision and lo and behold the campaign flunked. After getting a bollocking I re-ran it a few weeks later - essentially the same advert (same wording, same call to action but featuring the story of a little blond girl with a very English sounding name) - this time we raked it it! I was horrified but the marketing department just shrugged their shoulders, apparently this was a well known fact.

i left not long afterwards but it’s always stuck with me - it’s not that daily mail readers are racist as such, but it’s read by white people who don’t identify with them family featured in the advert and this they don’t donate. In order to be successful the advert had to feature ‘people like us’ to resonate with the reader and get them to donate.

also, always listen to your marketing team, they know this stuff, sad as it is. Glad I no longer work in that industry…

Throwing a spanner in the works but how much white privilege did my forbears have, being sent as convicts to Australia? Their British overlords - sure. But my ancestors - no. This is where people get pissed off with the "white privilege" argument. Everyone comes from a different place. Sure some people have everything handed to them - no matter their race. ( Rich Kids of Doha/ Qatar etc. ). Not sure race has a lot to do with it these days. Just money.

If you have netflix, you can see this in action - spend a couple of weeks clicking/watching programs presented to you with a certain profile of person in the picture (women/men/black/white/asian) etc. and you'll notice that it'll start presenting you with programs using people with those characteristics more - ie. if a program has a mix of characters, it will pic the cover image of one of the characters with the demographic you've shown a preference for.

It's marketing - we all have unconscious biases, we all gravitate to people who are familiar (which often means look like we do - although it can also be cultural - eg. a familiar accent), marketing exploits that.

I'm not sure it's something we'll ever change TBH, but we can combat it to a certain extent, challenge people day to day, I'm just not sure you'll ever get rid of it entirely, and not when it comes to selling to people, where increasing profit comes way higher up the requirements than making the world a better place.

@marvellousmaple i mean, enough to deprive the Australians already living there of their land/language/culture. I agree it’s not clear-cut and white privilege doesn’t mean a person or group can’t be deprived or oppressed in other ways, but you can’t pretend that even poor/deprived white people colonising ‘new’ countries hasn’t done harm to existing populations and cultures through an assumption of being entitled to land/resources, and superior in terms of language/culture/values/religion. It’s intersectional.

I am surprised you were surprised OP?

it’s why marketing companies now use a much more diverse range of models

same as more clothing brands waking up to the fact that their core market is middle aged women, and using older models

as to white privilege, it is a thing even if you are not from a western white country IME

i have been told by various people who are pro Brexit or anti- immigration that I am ok (gee thanks…) because ….? Although some anti-Polish sentiment also exists (I am not Polish but always assumed to be)

i have also experienced white privilege in Asia and South America where I was given better treatment than black or Asian friends. It was so disappointing and eye opening to see that racism literally seems to exist in every country I’ve been.

but back to OP: yes, representation matters and the world seems to be waking up to that

we have to keep talking about and challenging racism and privilege

Humans are tribalist and unconsciously many want to be with their own tribe. I was on a training course recently, POC and white people segregated themselves into different groups.