AIBU?
To not want my children to pay for tax cuts for the middle-class?
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 12:46
A new policy proposal to increase the ceiling for higher rate tax for individuals has been proposed so that it will only apply once you earn £80k plus. But there seems zero idea of how this will be funded.
Realistically the only way it will be funded is by increased government debt. Debt that my children and others will be working to pay off in the future.
Why should my children and others have to work in the future for tax cuts for the middle class?
Government borrowing should be for investment in the future. Building sources of cheap future energy for the future for example. It should not be used for short term political gains.
Am I being unreasonable?
AIBUYou have one vote. All votes are anonymous.
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 13:39
@LolaButt My OP was about not wanting my children to pay for debt being created simply for short-term political gains. It is a terrible way to run an economy.
The British economy is in an increasingly dire state. Our productivity for example is far too low. We need proper investment. That is worth racking debt up for as you get the payback. But debt for tax cuts will make zero difference to our economy and rack up debt that will affect the economy negatively in the future as well. It is making a bad situation worse.
I understand that those who benefit will like the extra money. We all like extra money. But it does nothing for Britain.
It does not even do much for the Conservative Party as so many of their voters are retired and will not have a large enough income to benefit from this. Unless the thought is to effectively buy votes from the working middle-class?
cardibach · 07/09/2022 13:39
Shareornotwhocares · 07/09/2022 13:07
No. You teach your kids to do well so they can take advantage of the lower taxes
Who will do the necessary jobs that don’t pay that then? Those we clapped as key workers, for example…
also I think I did well. I was a teacher and Head of a English. My highest salary was just over half of that £80k you think is for all successful people.
you're talking nonsense.
ScarlettOHaraHamiltonKennedyButler · 07/09/2022 13:40
Miajk · 07/09/2022 13:23
Well they already contribute more financially towards a lot of things they'll never use or benefit from, and to overall public services.
I'm one of those earners who's child free by choice and my taxes already go to support your kids education so maybe stop worrying about what else I should be funding.
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 13:05
So my children should pay the costs of incentivising middle-class people to earn more money?
And those childrens taxes will pay for your pension and future medical care, they will also be the ones treating you/delivering your food/wiping your arse etc. so it's swings and roundabouts isn't it.
Opake · 07/09/2022 13:40
There was a thread here last night where posters who earned 50k (which isn't that much these days) shared that they were disincentivized to take on more work because they'd lose over half of it. I'm in this category too. Finally increasing the 40% rate would actually STIMULATE growth and the economy.
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 13:41
MintJulia · 07/09/2022 13:35
How do you know your children won't be part of that middle class? It may directly benefit them.
The Higher rate tax threshold has been dropping for years, in real terms. At the moment, despite earning about £50k, my incremental tax rate (made up of paye, national insurance, and Child Benefit reduction, means I receive about 37p for every £1 I earn.
I'm late 50s. I can carry on working for the next 8 years, contributing to GDP and to the govt's tax take, or I can retire and contribute significantly less.
At 37p in the £ which do you think I should do?
It will not benefit my children however much they earn in the future. This is a fairly temporary measure. The government can't continue racking up more and more debt. It will have to end. And then the current children will have to pay more tax to pay it back and service the debt.
cardibach · 07/09/2022 13:41
abovedecknotbelow · 07/09/2022 13:10
Why can't you encourage your children to earn more? What do you mean by middle class? Sounds like you are resigned
To sending your kids down the mines or similar.
As I’ve replied to someone else, it’s not just manual jobs under that threshold. The vast majority of teachers, for exa,ple, will be. Nurses. A lot of doctors. Etc etc. you have a skewed idea of what people earn. Mind you, most of those professions are considered middle class too, so maybe you need to recognise that, too @antelopevalley
LadyCatStark · 07/09/2022 13:42
It will make a difference as hopefully it’ll stop (well reduce) higher rate tax payers from leaving to move abroad to places where the tax burden is less. I don’t think there should be a higher rate at all, it should be 20% on all earnings over the tax threshold. It’s not fair that people get 40% (realistically half after national insurance contributions) taken off them.
Opake · 07/09/2022 13:43
MarianneVos · 07/09/2022 13:16
But it's only the bit within the higher band that is taxed at the 40% rate, so they're fools if they turn down overtime or a raise for this reason!
(I'm aware that it's different for 100k plus).
shedwithivy · 07/09/2022 13:12
The higher rate tax band was introduced to take more tax off high earners, as the threshold hasn't changed while inflation has continued, it brings ordinary middle income jobs into this bracket (including police officers, firefighters, senior teachers) I do think it would be fairer to stagger tax around this threshold rather than it being a sudden jump which also deters people from promotions or overtime if it tips them into the higher band.
How are they fools? If work offer me £200 of overtime but I would only see £60 of it, of course I am going to turn it down.
ForTheLoveOfSleep · 07/09/2022 13:44
Miajk · 07/09/2022 13:23
Well they already contribute more financially towards a lot of things they'll never use or benefit from, and to overall public services.
I'm one of those earners who's child free by choice and my taxes already go to support your kids education so maybe stop worrying about what else I should be funding.
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 13:05
So my children should pay the costs of incentivising middle-class people to earn more money?
That's hilarious. You may be child free but your parents aren't. So you have directly benefitted from other childless people funding you via taxes. So get off your high horse love.
OnlyFoolsnMothers · 07/09/2022 13:45
Actually the best way to tax people now would be to raise the threshold to 80k and remove the tax free allowance for everyone over 100k.
i personally don’t remember celebrating when we finally paid back the ww2 debt, I didn’t suddenly have more money in my pocket.
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 13:45
@LadyCatStark No one moves abroad because they get a few thousand less in their pay packet over a year. Or if they do they are stupid. I sincerely mean that by the way. I have lived in several countries abroad and while there are real benefits to doing that, an extra £2 or £4k a year should not be the reason. It will cost you more than that just to move abroad.
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 13:46
Opake · 07/09/2022 13:43
How are they fools? If work offer me £200 of overtime but I would only see £60 of it, of course I am going to turn it down.
MarianneVos · 07/09/2022 13:16
But it's only the bit within the higher band that is taxed at the 40% rate, so they're fools if they turn down overtime or a raise for this reason!
(I'm aware that it's different for 100k plus).
shedwithivy · 07/09/2022 13:12
The higher rate tax band was introduced to take more tax off high earners, as the threshold hasn't changed while inflation has continued, it brings ordinary middle income jobs into this bracket (including police officers, firefighters, senior teachers) I do think it would be fairer to stagger tax around this threshold rather than it being a sudden jump which also deters people from promotions or overtime if it tips them into the higher band.
Arithmetic is obviously not your strong point.
MintJulia · 07/09/2022 13:47
OP, think about which people it will impact most - those earning between £45k and £100k.
Who are all those people who are retiring in the middle of a skills shortage? Who are the 'Great Resignees'?
They are experienced teachers, nurses, doctors, dentists etc in their 50s and early sixties. The ones we need to hang on to and encourage to go on working.
We have a chronic shortage of teachers, doctors, dentists. Creating a tax regime that encourages them to carry on working an extra 5 or 10 years sounds like a good idea to me. Better value too, because the NHS trained them and we should encourage them to work as long as possible.
Sorry if that offends you, but working class people need doctors and teachers just as much as anyone else.
Hoppinggreen · 07/09/2022 13:47
Shareornotwhocares · 07/09/2022 13:07
No. You teach your kids to do well so they can take advantage of the lower taxes
See, this is the kind of bollocks that the Tory party spout.
Not only is not everyone capable of doing a higher paid job but we actually need people to do the lower paid jobs as well.
We are high earners and could benefit from this change and others they are proposing but the thing is we don’t actually NEED this, I would much rather help was targeted at people who need it rather than us. But that wouldn’t keep the Tory supporters happy would it?
sundayvibeswig22 · 07/09/2022 13:48
But we all can't be doctors, etc. We need cleaners, shop staff, etc.
No we can't all be doctors, but the more money people have in their pocket the more they will spend, helping to keep people in their cleaning and shop jobs.
I work part time paye and run my own business. I keep my overall salary at 50k due to not wanting to lose my CB and the higher tax band threshold. I make more through my business but keep it in my business account. Obvs I still pay corporation tax on my profits.
50k in real terms is less than what it was 10 years ago so I agree it should be increased (though maybe not to 80k).
Itstime1 · 07/09/2022 13:51
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 13:46
Arithmetic is obviously not your strong point.
Opake · 07/09/2022 13:43
How are they fools? If work offer me £200 of overtime but I would only see £60 of it, of course I am going to turn it down.
MarianneVos · 07/09/2022 13:16
But it's only the bit within the higher band that is taxed at the 40% rate, so they're fools if they turn down overtime or a raise for this reason!
(I'm aware that it's different for 100k plus).
shedwithivy · 07/09/2022 13:12
The higher rate tax band was introduced to take more tax off high earners, as the threshold hasn't changed while inflation has continued, it brings ordinary middle income jobs into this bracket (including police officers, firefighters, senior teachers) I do think it would be fairer to stagger tax around this threshold rather than it being a sudden jump which also deters people from promotions or overtime if it tips them into the higher band.
Sorry op but they are only out by a couple of ££.
Any additional pay my DH gets - we automatically loose 67% so for their £200 we would only get £66.
as they said- sometimes its not worth the extra hassle.
and whilst I see where you’re coming from, we’ve been saddled paying the ww2 debt- we didn’t have a choice either! The thought behind raising the threshold (which I believe should be raised when the tax free allowance is raised) is to allow for money in the economy- more spending which helps keep it ticking over.
if no one has money to spend then we’re all screwed!
saleorbouy · 07/09/2022 13:52
Your children might well become higher rate tax payers themselves especially if you support them and encourage them to aim high with their career aspirations.
I don't think any tax payer wants to pay tax but as part of society it's collected and spent perhaps not as you wish.
The number of higher rate taxpayers has risen massively and encompasses many middle rate earners due to the threshold being being raised more slowly than wage increases. (Fiscal drag)
There is little point in people getting payrises to cover inflation and handing it straight back in taxes.
More disposable income will support high street and hospitality jobs.
Everanewbie · 07/09/2022 13:54
The whole system needs changing. The ridiculousness of people paying income tax yet receiving benefits, the NI that isn't a tax, that is a tax, the loopholes of business owners paying themselves and their spouse (allegedly employed) £12,500 then the rest in dividends.
Then there is the rates. Someone on £50k is hardly raking it in, and anything they earn above this the government take half (after NI).
I don't see increasing the higher rate threshold as penalising lower earners.
Cheeselog · 07/09/2022 13:55
fullfact.org/economy/guide-economy-taxes/
I agree that borrowing to pay for tax cuts is a bad idea but the top 50% of earners pay 90% of income tax. It’s really the not the poor funding the middle. The higher rate threshold has been frozen for years and should have risen in line with inflation and the personal allowance.
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