AIBU?
To not want my children to pay for tax cuts for the middle-class?
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 12:46
A new policy proposal to increase the ceiling for higher rate tax for individuals has been proposed so that it will only apply once you earn £80k plus. But there seems zero idea of how this will be funded.
Realistically the only way it will be funded is by increased government debt. Debt that my children and others will be working to pay off in the future.
Why should my children and others have to work in the future for tax cuts for the middle class?
Government borrowing should be for investment in the future. Building sources of cheap future energy for the future for example. It should not be used for short term political gains.
Am I being unreasonable?
AIBUYou have one vote. All votes are anonymous.
FarFromHome2 · 08/09/2022 10:28
Off the top of my head I can think of six people to whom I’m close who live in Yorkshire.
Their jobs are;
Barrister
Judge
Midwife
Draftsman
Accountant
Fashion Designer.
Half of them will (each) be on over £80,000 per year.
The accountant is retired now, and just does some consultancy work, as he sold his shares in his small company when they were taken over by Sage, so now has quite a few million pounds in the bank.
antelopevalley · 08/09/2022 10:36
@FarFromHome2 Well off people tend to know other well off people.
But I know if I look at the jobs advertised where I live in Scotland, it is very rare to see a job advertised at £40k up. I know there are some people with jobs earning that much such as headmasters and GPs, but the job vacancies page gives the impression it is extremely rare. The average official wage is also way below the national average wage.
FarFromHome2 · 08/09/2022 10:41
antelopevalley · 08/09/2022 10:36
@FarFromHome2 Well off people tend to know other well off people.
But I know if I look at the jobs advertised where I live in Scotland, it is very rare to see a job advertised at £40k up. I know there are some people with jobs earning that much such as headmasters and GPs, but the job vacancies page gives the impression it is extremely rare. The average official wage is also way below the national average wage.
I can see where you are going wrong. These jobs are simply not advertised where you are looking. You are doing the equivalent of going down to the job centre looking for a job as a cardiac surgeon and being surprised that most adverts are for being a chef in a pub or a security guard in a factory.
What is your degree in, and what sort of career are you looking for?
If you want to earn £100k plus then yes, you may need additional skills, and may need to work for a lot of years to get there, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not possible.
Labraradabrador · 08/09/2022 10:49
antelopevalley · 08/09/2022 10:36
@FarFromHome2 Well off people tend to know other well off people.
But I know if I look at the jobs advertised where I live in Scotland, it is very rare to see a job advertised at £40k up. I know there are some people with jobs earning that much such as headmasters and GPs, but the job vacancies page gives the impression it is extremely rare. The average official wage is also way below the national average wage.
Higher wage jobs aren’t typically advertised in the same way, so you won’t find them in the help wanted section(or whatever people use these days). Usually you would engage a recruiter who sources applicants that fit a particular profile, but if you do advertise you would say ‘competitive salary’ and leave it at that. I am contacted about job openings 2-3 times per month on average, all well into six figures and many now flexible about location. I also don’t have any particular qualifications beyond university degree - just lots of experience in my sector.
antelopevalley · 08/09/2022 10:52
I understand that. But I also understand how someone looking at a low average local wage, not knowing anyone personally who is a higher rate taxpayer and not seeing any jobs advertised with higher wages, concludes there is a lack of those types of jobs where they live.
luckylavender · 08/09/2022 10:54
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 12:46
A new policy proposal to increase the ceiling for higher rate tax for individuals has been proposed so that it will only apply once you earn £80k plus. But there seems zero idea of how this will be funded.
Realistically the only way it will be funded is by increased government debt. Debt that my children and others will be working to pay off in the future.
Why should my children and others have to work in the future for tax cuts for the middle class?
Government borrowing should be for investment in the future. Building sources of cheap future energy for the future for example. It should not be used for short term political gains.
Stop voting Tory
antelopevalley · 08/09/2022 10:55
I know trades people earning low wages, people working in jobs as cleaners and childcare workers on low wages, etc. Whereas in MN people only seem to know people working in trades earning very high wages and cleaners and nannies all on £30k plus. In reality the average trades wages are in the low £30ks - differs depending on the trade, and cleaners and childcare workers tend to be low paid.
Your personal experience does not always reflect the average reality.
Wouldloveanother · 08/09/2022 11:12
Your personal experience does not always reflect the average reality.
But neither does yours. And while people living in more expensive parts of the country may earn more, that’s reflected in the astronomical house prices/rent that they pay.
You seem to have almost a Dickensian view of poverty, that a lower salary = poor and average or above average salary = wealthy.
The cookie simply doesn’t crumble like that.
FarFromHome2 · 08/09/2022 12:05
antelopevalley · 08/09/2022 11:29
@Wouldloveanother I look at actual research.
And yet you seem to ignore facts that don’t suit your preferred narrative.
Those higher earners that you don’t want your children to pay for, they are the ones actually paying in the most tax, so are paying for your children, not the other way round.
Higher earners have been paying more tax under this government for years than they did under Labour. Trying to claim that reducing this increase is “making my children pay” isn’t tenable.
Doingprettywellthanks · 08/09/2022 12:53
FarFromHome2 · 08/09/2022 09:49
Our nanny gets £18 per hour, our cleaner gets £17. I don’t think that that can be considered “ at the bottom.”
Booklover3 · 07/09/2022 21:42
And where would you prefer to be in that triangle? The one at the top with all the money to employee these people… or at the bottom with the nanny or the cleaner?
Capri3 · 07/09/2022 20:19
No, not at all. I live in a London commuter-belt town. Loads of top percent earners keep nannies, gardeners, cleaners, hairdressers, manicurists, beauticians, car valeters, private dentists/doctors and tree surgeons in work. Local takeaways and restaurants are always busy. Lots of extensions and house renovations employing architects, brick layers, tilers, electricians, kitchen fitters, plumbers, floor fitters, carpet fitters. Several private schools, academic tutoring services, tennis coaches, dance schools, swimming instructors etc….
Where do you think that the money comes from to employ all of these people?
Booklover3 · 07/09/2022 18:25
The theory that wealth trickles down is all well and good if you are near the top right? A bit like a pyramid scheme…
Is that cash in hand to your cleaner out of interest?
FarFromHome2 · 08/09/2022 12:57
Doingprettywellthanks · 08/09/2022 12:53
Is that cash in hand to your cleaner out of interest?
FarFromHome2 · 08/09/2022 09:49
Our nanny gets £18 per hour, our cleaner gets £17. I don’t think that that can be considered “ at the bottom.”
Booklover3 · 07/09/2022 21:42
And where would you prefer to be in that triangle? The one at the top with all the money to employee these people… or at the bottom with the nanny or the cleaner?
Capri3 · 07/09/2022 20:19
No, not at all. I live in a London commuter-belt town. Loads of top percent earners keep nannies, gardeners, cleaners, hairdressers, manicurists, beauticians, car valeters, private dentists/doctors and tree surgeons in work. Local takeaways and restaurants are always busy. Lots of extensions and house renovations employing architects, brick layers, tilers, electricians, kitchen fitters, plumbers, floor fitters, carpet fitters. Several private schools, academic tutoring services, tennis coaches, dance schools, swimming instructors etc….
Where do you think that the money comes from to employ all of these people?
Booklover3 · 07/09/2022 18:25
The theory that wealth trickles down is all well and good if you are near the top right? A bit like a pyramid scheme…
No, that’s their gross pay.
Why do you ask, are you dodging tax with yours?
Doingprettywellthanks · 08/09/2022 13:07
FarFromHome2 · 08/09/2022 12:57
No, that’s their gross pay.
Why do you ask, are you dodging tax with yours?
Doingprettywellthanks · 08/09/2022 12:53
Is that cash in hand to your cleaner out of interest?
FarFromHome2 · 08/09/2022 09:49
Our nanny gets £18 per hour, our cleaner gets £17. I don’t think that that can be considered “ at the bottom.”
Booklover3 · 07/09/2022 21:42
And where would you prefer to be in that triangle? The one at the top with all the money to employee these people… or at the bottom with the nanny or the cleaner?
Capri3 · 07/09/2022 20:19
No, not at all. I live in a London commuter-belt town. Loads of top percent earners keep nannies, gardeners, cleaners, hairdressers, manicurists, beauticians, car valeters, private dentists/doctors and tree surgeons in work. Local takeaways and restaurants are always busy. Lots of extensions and house renovations employing architects, brick layers, tilers, electricians, kitchen fitters, plumbers, floor fitters, carpet fitters. Several private schools, academic tutoring services, tennis coaches, dance schools, swimming instructors etc….
Where do you think that the money comes from to employ all of these people?
Booklover3 · 07/09/2022 18:25
The theory that wealth trickles down is all well and good if you are near the top right? A bit like a pyramid scheme…
Yep. I pay cash
Jiminycricket10 · 08/09/2022 14:14
FarFromHome2 · 08/09/2022 09:47
Yorkshire has barristers, headmasters, accountants, surgeons, dentists, architects, senior police officers and so-on earning that sort of money. Is there any reason that these jobs aren’t achievable for you?
Jiminycricket10 · 07/09/2022 20:21
This ^ totally agree @5128gap
My mum did drill it into us to work hard at school, get a degree, value education.
I’m still waiting for the plethora of Yorkshire based companies offering even 40k+ never mind 80k+ that are apparently waiting to reward my hard work as promised...
5128gap · 07/09/2022 19:50
Excellent. Let's all just tell our children that then! And in the future there will be millions of £80k+ jobs suddenly created out of thin air for everyone who was sufficiently incenticised to want one.
And we won't need any teachers, or carers, or nurses, or social workers, police officers or cleaners or shop workers....Oh yeah, we might actually...but I know! They can earn £80k too! (as long as they worked hard at school, obvs.)
Everyone can be senior, no need for lower paid workers at all, ever again.
It'll be BRILLIANT!
Ohdearthatwasntgreatwasit · 07/09/2022 13:01
We have to incentivise people to do better for themselves.
If you want to benefit from this kind of tax cut, be a higher earner. Admittedly for most adults the ship will have sailed by the time they become parents, but the idea is that you drum it into your DC that they need to do better at school, get better jobs etc to be earning at this level.
I have to go back to my point about working conditions. I’m qualified in education, but honestly, the education system is severely broken if not actually damaging for some children and staff... (I got out due to this as have many others who are voting with their feet). So, I object to the argument that tax breaks should be given to encourage ppl to stay (you’ll actually find many experienced teachers - even under 50k - being forced out because they’re ‘too expensive’).
At no point in my ‘work hard to get a good job and earn well’ mantra was the crap that goes off in schools/the NHS/social care and many other core systems part of the deal. Nor do I agree that the professions you list (all senior) are the only ones of value deserving tax breaks. I guess I object to the school of thought that only being higher up in a profession brings enough value for a decent wage...
Badbadbunny · 09/09/2022 07:24
A thread on another forum today highlighting a typical case of the impact of stupid tax rules where trying to get more tax off "higher" earners ends up with HMRC getting less!
forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6385864/reducing-income-to-receive-child-benefit
FarFromHome2 · 09/09/2022 07:38
Jiminycricket10 · 08/09/2022 14:14
I have to go back to my point about working conditions. I’m qualified in education, but honestly, the education system is severely broken if not actually damaging for some children and staff... (I got out due to this as have many others who are voting with their feet). So, I object to the argument that tax breaks should be given to encourage ppl to stay (you’ll actually find many experienced teachers - even under 50k - being forced out because they’re ‘too expensive’).
At no point in my ‘work hard to get a good job and earn well’ mantra was the crap that goes off in schools/the NHS/social care and many other core systems part of the deal. Nor do I agree that the professions you list (all senior) are the only ones of value deserving tax breaks. I guess I object to the school of thought that only being higher up in a profession brings enough value for a decent wage...
FarFromHome2 · 08/09/2022 09:47
Yorkshire has barristers, headmasters, accountants, surgeons, dentists, architects, senior police officers and so-on earning that sort of money. Is there any reason that these jobs aren’t achievable for you?
Jiminycricket10 · 07/09/2022 20:21
This ^ totally agree @5128gap
My mum did drill it into us to work hard at school, get a degree, value education.
I’m still waiting for the plethora of Yorkshire based companies offering even 40k+ never mind 80k+ that are apparently waiting to reward my hard work as promised...
5128gap · 07/09/2022 19:50
Excellent. Let's all just tell our children that then! And in the future there will be millions of £80k+ jobs suddenly created out of thin air for everyone who was sufficiently incenticised to want one.
And we won't need any teachers, or carers, or nurses, or social workers, police officers or cleaners or shop workers....Oh yeah, we might actually...but I know! They can earn £80k too! (as long as they worked hard at school, obvs.)
Everyone can be senior, no need for lower paid workers at all, ever again.
It'll be BRILLIANT!
Ohdearthatwasntgreatwasit · 07/09/2022 13:01
We have to incentivise people to do better for themselves.
If you want to benefit from this kind of tax cut, be a higher earner. Admittedly for most adults the ship will have sailed by the time they become parents, but the idea is that you drum it into your DC that they need to do better at school, get better jobs etc to be earning at this level.
You are responding to points I didn’t make, my post was in response to the false claim that there were none or only very few high-paying jobs in Yorkshire.
I’m not sure what your dissatisfaction with teaching has to do with it.
Mybestyear · 09/09/2022 12:38
shedwithivy · 07/09/2022 13:12
The higher rate tax band was introduced to take more tax off high earners, as the threshold hasn't changed while inflation has continued, it brings ordinary middle income jobs into this bracket (including police officers, firefighters, senior teachers) I do think it would be fairer to stagger tax around this threshold rather than it being a sudden jump which also deters people from promotions or overtime if it tips them into the higher band.
This. I’m a nurse (34 years qualified) and have undertaken around 10 years of additional study and training to get to where I am. I’m from a traditional working class background (coal mining) and have absolutely worked my socks off to earn £60k. Although this is a good salary, it’s not comparable to what 60k was when I was growing up. I’m now considering taking a less demanding role at a lower salary as it’s just not worth the stress as such a huge chunk of my pay goes on tax. It would effectively mean a loss of my skills in the NHS but I’m doing a high risk job (risk as in patient- related interventions) and the stress just doesn’t seem worth it.
Jiminycricket10 · 09/09/2022 12:55
I actually found many points on this thread very interesting - particularly the accountant who explained how going over 100k works out at high tax on extra earnings due to the combination of losing the tax free threshold and high tax rates... Sounds like the tax system needs updating so it’s fair to everyone and it pays to work... Plus addressing issues like misogyny in pay scales, with many traditionally ‘male’ roles often considered more ‘valuable’... (trades, high level managers on millions vs carers, admin staff, etc.).
I’m not against hard work paying but I think many claims are misguided - that just because Yorkshire has the standard managerial level jobs like doctors, judges, headteachers, etc. that there are a wealth of well paying opportunities and raising only the 40% tax threshold will encourage people to get there. Home/hybrid working have improved the situation somewhat, and there are some fabulous initiatives around encouraging and supporting entrepreneurs, but there’s a long way to go.
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