AIBU?
To not want my children to pay for tax cuts for the middle-class?
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 12:46
A new policy proposal to increase the ceiling for higher rate tax for individuals has been proposed so that it will only apply once you earn £80k plus. But there seems zero idea of how this will be funded.
Realistically the only way it will be funded is by increased government debt. Debt that my children and others will be working to pay off in the future.
Why should my children and others have to work in the future for tax cuts for the middle class?
Government borrowing should be for investment in the future. Building sources of cheap future energy for the future for example. It should not be used for short term political gains.
Am I being unreasonable?
AIBUYou have one vote. All votes are anonymous.
Miajk · 07/09/2022 14:58
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 14:54
@Badbadbunny Except that is not what will happen. An economic crisis is right on the horizon.
This measure will add to government debt and have no real impact economically. It is the worst of all worlds.
Well I would certainly spend more if the government took less of my money, and what the economy needs is for people to spend.
Have you also considered that since our government is great at pissing money away some people would rather it was theirs than given out in another bogus contract for tory pals?
Winceybincey · 07/09/2022 15:00
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 13:05
So my children should pay the costs of incentivising middle-class people to earn more money?
Why are you assuming your children won’t be middle class and benefit from this? Are you encouraging them to be low earners?
i’m so confused by this post
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 15:00
ChristinaXYZ · 07/09/2022 14:54
That's a more interesting point than your original one. I think part of it is underinvestment but companies need incentives to invest. Windfall taxes for example are a disincentive. Companies are better at investing than government because they better understand what their industry needs. To invest, they need to keep more of their money. They also need to be a bit leaner - clearing out a lot of unproductive middle management (same is true for schools and hospitals) - or using consultancy firms that do little (media advisers, PR, advertising people, and other creatives plus all the diversity industry).
Businesses used to do all that in house and as a much lower portion of the investments they made. Or even when they bought is in, it was a much simpler product (art for newspaper ad, etc., not some creative's 'vision'). Health and safety, though much maligned, is however a part of middle management worth keeping. It is easy to forget how many people suffered industrial accidents.
I run a business: my biggest barrier to growth is all the various things I have to sign up to, to export - instead of saying small businesses of less than 100K turn-over can just pay a flat fee to contribute to whatever bit of social engineering is current (VAT in country of sale, green packaging levies etc - nothing to do with Brexit which in my industry has been no problem) they want me to pay lots of small sums with lots of attached paperwork - keeping track of every bit of packing I use and its content for example - I don't have time, should I employ someone? How is that productive? I like Truss' idea that government should do less and do it better. I'd give her a chance.
Investing in broadband, energy infrastructure, high tech batteries, transport and ports is needed. The Tories are committed to two of those already. I'd like to see what they do with the railways/smart motorways, etc. And the problems of lots of electric cars when when so many people live in terraced houses of flats. And problem of increased plastic pollution from heavier electric cars (plastic particles from tyres/roads/road paint is huge generator of plastic micro waste in the sea).
And btw just because people don't agree with you, does not mean they do not understand economics.
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 13:58
You do not understand productivity. The UK economy productivity is shit. That is not because people need to work more hours, they do not.
Our productivity is shit because of a lack of investment by companies and government.
byvirtue · 07/09/2022 13:56
We tried to find a brickie a few years ago to do some work and they were all working part time and didn’t want the work because it would take them over the tax threshold.
The UKs productivity is pretty shit and the tax system categorically contributes to that. We should be incentivising work not penalising those whose reach some arbitrary earning threshold.
The poster did not understand what productivity meant so my comment was fair.
It is a nice idea that companies invest more if they get to keep more money, but that has not happened. There has been very little investment in energy production in spite of high incomes. The car industry has made virtually no investment in battery factories and the high performance car industry spent money lobbying government to be an exception to no more new petrol cars in 2030, rather than investing in new products.
And sorry, but what we need is large companies to invest and government, small firms can help but do not have the resources to make the impact really needed.
The government has pretty much ignored manufacturing which has contributed to our low productivity. While governments in Germany and Singapore have understand the importance of manufacturing. Instead there has been a push for the UK to have a service economy without understanding that this strategy leads to lower productivity.
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 15:02
Winceybincey · 07/09/2022 15:00
Why are you assuming your children won’t be middle class and benefit from this? Are you encouraging them to be low earners?
i’m so confused by this post
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 13:05
So my children should pay the costs of incentivising middle-class people to earn more money?
You are very naive if you think tax will stay low. Government debt is spiralling. Everyone will pay for it in the future. My children will pay high tax whatever they earn.
Badbadbunny · 07/09/2022 15:02
@ChristinaXYZ
I like Truss' idea that government should do less and do it better. I'd give her a chance.
I fully agree. Far too much unnecessary/meaningless/pointless bureaucracy and form filling, box ticking, etc for no benefit. As you say, H&S is the one area that needs to stay, but we need that to be better too, as it's still lots of box-ticking and meaningless platitudes in policy statements etc that are ignored in real practice.
Like cafes/restaurants who can get poor food hygiene ratings or even closed down if they don't have comprehensive work instructions and policy documents (even if the food prepared is perfectly safe because the people doing it know what they're doing and don't need it written down in front of them). Contrast that with other cafes who DO have 5 star ratings because they have files of paperwork, but who employ incompetent staff who never read the instructions/policies and then serve dangerous food!
That's the problem - lots of paperwork which the regulators/inspectors check, but they don't check the paperwork is actually followed!
That's the same in lots of industries, trades and professions. In my profession (tax) our regulators mark us down if we havn't cross-referenced or files or if we havn't updated an expired client passport copy on file. They NEVER check that we've prepared the tax return correctly which is what really matters. They're obsessed with systems and procedures that aren't actually relevant to the actual work we do! We could prepare a tax return that was a work of fiction but as long as we'd ticked our checklist boxes we'd pass with flying colours.
Winceybincey · 07/09/2022 15:06
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 13:26
And if they have SEN and will struggle to do any job, tough luck.
My nephew is a labourer on a farm. We are all delighted as he has autism and there were serious concerns he would never get a job. He only has a job because the farmer accepts that he is a hard worker, but needs more detailed explanations and support than other employees.
SleeplessInEngland · 07/09/2022 13:20
Lol, ok Ayn Rand. I really doubt someone at school is thinking 'gee, I better work hard now since they pushed that tax bracket up slightly'. They will or they won't regardless.
Ohdearthatwasntgreatwasit · 07/09/2022 13:01
We have to incentivise people to do better for themselves.
If you want to benefit from this kind of tax cut, be a higher earner. Admittedly for most adults the ship will have sailed by the time they become parents, but the idea is that you drum it into your DC that they need to do better at school, get better jobs etc to be earning at this level.
Why wouldn’t he be able to have a job? I’ve had colleagues with autism who have been in the top pay bracket of the companies. Many autistic people are extremely smart and highly valued in the work place. Could you and your family be holding him back with your beliefs?
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 15:06
Badbadbunny · 07/09/2022 15:04
@antelopevalley
Instead there has been a push for the UK to have a service economy without understanding that this strategy leads to lower productivity.
It was Blair/Brown who were obsessed with the service economy!
It was actually Thatcher who started it. She was obsessed with it. And others followed her lead.
We need about 40% of the economy to be highly skilled manufacturing. sectors.
Our car industry will be dead in less than a decade without significant investment.
There seems to be too much asset stripping in the UK, rather than investment.
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 15:08
Winceybincey · 07/09/2022 15:06
Why wouldn’t he be able to have a job? I’ve had colleagues with autism who have been in the top pay bracket of the companies. Many autistic people are extremely smart and highly valued in the work place. Could you and your family be holding him back with your beliefs?
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 13:26
And if they have SEN and will struggle to do any job, tough luck.
My nephew is a labourer on a farm. We are all delighted as he has autism and there were serious concerns he would never get a job. He only has a job because the farmer accepts that he is a hard worker, but needs more detailed explanations and support than other employees.
SleeplessInEngland · 07/09/2022 13:20
Lol, ok Ayn Rand. I really doubt someone at school is thinking 'gee, I better work hard now since they pushed that tax bracket up slightly'. They will or they won't regardless.
Ohdearthatwasntgreatwasit · 07/09/2022 13:01
We have to incentivise people to do better for themselves.
If you want to benefit from this kind of tax cut, be a higher earner. Admittedly for most adults the ship will have sailed by the time they become parents, but the idea is that you drum it into your DC that they need to do better at school, get better jobs etc to be earning at this level.
You do know there are different degrees of autism?
Someone who struggles to communicate at all, cannot live independently without support, and has no special ability around skills such as IT, is going to struggle.
Tangled123 · 07/09/2022 15:11
My husband and I earn about £50k combined. We earn just enough to cover bills but have nothing left over for fun. Where is our help? Where is our incentive to work? The absolute bottom are getting uniform grants and cost of living payments, and now the middle classes are getting tax cuts. What about us? We’re the ones who won’t be able to afford anything if bills keep going up but no one seems to give a shit. What is the point in us working? That we might get a promotion? Unlikely. Companies in NI are too small, still don’t give a shit about promoting staff and education is way too expensive. We’re fucked.
Doingprettywellthanks · 07/09/2022 15:11
Someone who struggles to communicate at all, cannot live independently without support, and has no special ability around skills such as IT, is going to struggle.
so if your son is not going to be able to work, then he’s not going to be paying anyone anything . Let alone “paying back” the middle classes
Pinkpeony2 · 07/09/2022 15:12
Bloody hell. As a higher earner (who hasn’t had hand outs from relatives and hasn’t come for a rich family but has worked really hard) I can tell you I’ve been ‘funding’ lower earners and the unemployed for the past 20 years.
The taxes are really high in the upper bracket and it can make it not even wor the bothering to progress your career or move up the career ladder as sometimes you are worse off taking a promotion.
Everanewbie · 07/09/2022 15:12
Can we have some balance on this thread? Half seem to think that good earners should pay zero and low earners should be grateful for scraps, and the other half seem to think that well paying jobs are the preserve of some mysterious middle class that is closed to new members, and therefore no one can possibly aspire top it and that anyone with moderate success should be taxed until the pips squeak.
Winceybincey · 07/09/2022 15:13
Thatswhyimacat · 07/09/2022 15:07
Separate from any other points made on this thread, I am absolutely cracking up that apparently all it takes to become a high earner is 'encouragement'. If only more people on low wages knew this!
I don’t think anyone has said that that is ‘all’ it takes. But the OP had already discounted her children from being high earners in her first post, before they’ve even left school, so the comments will likely be in relation to that.
Miajk · 07/09/2022 15:16
TheBoots · 07/09/2022 15:13
God the replies here are depressing!!! For what it's worth OP, I am in the higher tax bracket and I agree with you. I would happily pay higher taxes in order to have excellent services that benefit everyone.
Except that.. we don't get great services.
As shown by the gov pissing most of the money away. The NHS crumbling. Extra taxes won't go into public services because that's not what the government cares about.
antelopevalley · 07/09/2022 15:16
@Doingprettywellthanks If you read my posts you would know that. The not respectable working class is those who are long-term unemployed, living in sink estates, who nearly everyone else looks down on. I come from that family that MN people would look down on and use as an anecdote against benefits. I now live in a decent area, Jointly own a house, and work full time.
@MrsDanversGlidesAgain Some of the pandemic debt was unavoidable, although competency and a lack of corruption would have kept the debt much lower. But we should not be adding to the debt unless we cant avoid it.
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