To think we're about to witness a repeat of Labour's wrong Miliband brother moment?

[KenAdams]

How Liz will won above Rishi is beyond me. I mean, I know they're both Tories and we are where we are but her interview with Laura K on Sunday really worried me.

I feel like the country is on a knife edge waiting to see what she will announce and I'm 99% sure it just won't be enough and it will start a chain of events that will make for such a difficult time for this country.

I do think it would be stopped if Rishi were PM or at least kerbed but I feel that the Tory party are about to make the wrong decision with who they chose and with it will bring dire consequences for the country.

I would think it would make them unelectable but if they've selected an ERG PM then who knows any more? Maybe I'm just a cynic but I'm so concerned about the next few weeks and months.

I'm doing a Clav here going out for a calming walk before the rain sets in. It's no accident that Switzerland has got to be one of the richest counties on earth never fighting wars and focusing on enriching their own people maybe there is a lesson to the world there somewhere.

I shall wear my Jeremy Corbyn badge with pride fl and I hope your blood, sweat and tears policy has huge help for the poorest in Europe and be given freely and willingly to those that are going to be most affected by the consequence of a prolonged conflict.

Festoonlights · Today 10:07
antelopevalley · Today 09:55
@vera99 are you just here to preach? You are ignoring people disagreeing with you.
Absolutely 100% spot on antelopevalley

Takes one to know one... 😉

some of which are things this Tory government has implemented e.g. the Rwanda policy,

The EU had a similar plan to relocate refugees to a third country. Would you have called them "fascist", had they gone ahead? If a Labour government did the same, would you call them "fascist" too? It would be a possibility, Labour governments in the past have been keen to be seen as tough.

I consider the restrictions on protest to be 'fascist' in nature. They are not 'liberal'.

Maybe. I could be inclined to call the protestors "fascists" too, if name-calling were my style. It would seem a suitable moniker for those determined to dictate my diet or force people to change their lifestyles.

The majority of voters do vote for Unionist parties. At the moment one separatist party who got less than 2% of the constituency vote is propping up the other separist party.

Switzerland has got to be one of the richest countries in the world by "stealing" Jewish money i..e it refused to return money to Jewish people after the second world war unless they had bank account paperwork. Even if they knew their account number etc and could prove their identity. They would only accept original paperwork, which given many Jewish people had been in concentration camps, they did not have.

Since then Switzerland has given privacy to all kinds of dodgy savings. They are the banker of the dodgy world.
This is why no one tries to start a war with Switzerland, there are too many vested financial interests.

Britain does not have this history.

Yes, if the EU had gone ahead I would have called that policy fascist too. As with Australia's.

Your argument about the protestors is not something I can respond to because you and I have not agreed which protestors we are talking about, so you are just on a personal hobby horse there. I am fine for you to eat what you want. No one can force anyone to change their lifestyles, that should be subject to legislation made democratically.

I'm sick of people trying to change Britain and take away our traditional freedoms.

You can wear your JC badge with pride and sign up to endless appeasement as Putin invades one country after another thanks to your ideology, and we will be in a much worse state without question.

Thanks to you and your ilk we wouldn't even belong to Nato and would have no nuclear deterrent to speak of at all. What a dangerous philosophy you are peddling. And you have the gall to talk about people's pensions - there will be no pensions or any pensioners at all if Putin does his worst! The only thing stopping him from using nuclear weapons is the very real and present threat of being nuked himself.

You are deluded vera if you think Putin will stop if you serve Ukraine up on a platter, and he will be straight back for Moldova and Poland, and that will be just the start.

For goodness sake wake up vera and co. Jeremy Corybyn was booted out because his ideas are absolutely bonkers and deserve to be consigned to communes in the south west with wind chimes and weed for breakfast.

In 2022 and beyond I can not think of a more dangerous place to be as a country than governed by a Labour party that is jammed packed full of people that think like you - and believe tea and toast and appeasement is a proper defence strategy against a murderous dictator with expansion on an imperial scale in mind (despite falling way below any military expectations)

Corbyn was thrown out of the labour party. Most of his supporters have now left the labour party or been thrown out. Corbyn supporters hate Starmer because he is a centrist.
The current Labour Party under Starmer is a centrist party.

As far as I was aware Corbyn is still a Labour MP and still has plenty of support.

@Festoonlights The only party that has appeased Russia is the Conservatives, they did nothing when he invaded Crimea, nor did they do anything when the report came out in 2012 that Russia had poisoned Litvinenko with a nuclear poison in the UK.. then did nothing again when Russia used nerve agent in Salisbury, killing a british citizen.

In fact the Tories carried on taking million in Russian money and actively supported Russians buying up property and assets in London... we know this because when forced into action, Johnson stripped UK assets from Putin supporters here in the UK.

The Tories also carried out Brexit, a Putin aim.

You can cherry pick all you like and divert to Corbyn when it suits you but it is the conservatives who have encouraged Putin's expansionism.

Fortunately, Bojo's self promotion and doing the right thing coincided, so the UK has been a great ally to Ukraine.

Shows yet again your ignorance, he is an independent MP and is voted in democratically.

I like threads like this, I like listening to such alternative views. I might not agree with carving up Ukraine to appease Putin - or think it is a strategy that will work, but some people clearly think it will.

Switzerland is basically impossible to invade. It is a mountainous country riddled with defensive tunnels and fortifications. Most of the adult male population has trained in the Swiss Army. That's how they have afforded not to get involved in past conflicts. No one would dare look at them next. Putin was not going to stop at Ukraine and Beijing were watching keenly too, eager to see if they could get away with invading Taiwan.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”

Agreed. Corbyn was thrown out of the Labour Party. Most of his supporters have left or been thrown out.
Keir Starmer is a centrist and hated by Corbyn supporters.

So to the precis the let's not sue for peace argument - is to turn Ukraine into a meat grinder for the impoverished Russian conscripts, but they are miserable Russians hey - smash Ukraine into pieces and push Putin into potential dangerous escalation in the hope to destroy his ability once and for all.

US foreign policy at it's finest, particularly so as Johnson scuttled off to Ukraine apparently to obstruct peace talks that were developing back in April. Let's not forget they were responsible for 3.5 million deaths in SE Asia and collapsed economies even supporting Pol Pot against China.

dailysceptic.org/2022/09/01/did-boris-scuttle-talks-between-ukraine-and-russia/

Zelensky has now said all Russians are complicit now - he's not making the distinction between Putin and the Russian people. As their neighbour when does that madness end? BTW Corbyn was against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and at the 2017 election if you took the over 65s out of the equation he would have won only to be destroyed by the forces of capital no doubt.

Jeremy in 2003 telling it as it is ... where these "no appeasers" would have been cheering on the war no doubt.

One thing the pandemic taught us was who matters the most when the backs are up against the wall - the nurses, delivery drivers, cleaners, train drivers working class people who couldn't cower working from home making sourdough. The same people are now expected to pay the highest price for the war when all they want is affordable housing, a decent wage for a reasonable life and peace and security and be able to feed and heat their homes this winter.

Never trust a Tory, particularly now they are a UKIP reactionary ERG claque stripped of the decent old One Nation guys. Truss is cut from the same cloth but a pale copy of her mentor and predecessor Johnson. And once the war hawks have finished with Russia they will turn to China with ferocity - indeed they see Ukraine as an unwelcome distraction from that direction of travel - that's what a failing hyperpower US - laden with debt does when faced with the rise of a potential economic rival.

www.facebook.com/JeremyCorbynMP/videos/2135903336720704/

I'll withdraw the Switzerland argument on reflection but I wouldn't half mind being one !

Your argument about the protestors is not something I can respond to because you and I have not agreed which protestors we are talking about, so you are just on a personal hobby horse there. I am fine for you to eat what you want. No one can force anyone to change their lifestyles, that should be subject to legislation made democratically.

I'm just thinking of the most recent ones to hit the news. The ones climbing over a dairy. They would love to ban me from drinking milk. I could certainly describe them as "fascist" if I were so inclined (like I say, I try to avoid throwing insults about). Most of the other protests in recent years have been from similar groups, indeed they've often splintered from each other (seems to be very much a People's Front of Judea situation with Extinction Rebellion, Animal Rebellion, HS2 Rebellion, Insulate Britain and Just Stop Oil).

Take HS2 for example. You don't like a decision? By all means lobby Parliament, go through the courts if you believe that due process hasn't been followed etc. But the idiots climbing trees, burrowing under Euston and abusing construction workers I have no time for. Those methods were never going to achieve anything. They've just cost the taxpayer a load of money in security, court injunctions, and inevitably imprisonment because this lot didn't heed the injunction. The thing about living in a democracy is that not every decision can be the one you wanted.

For most of them, the cause they claim to be protesting about is secondary to having the chance to make a mess and have a punch-up. That's why the same faces often appear at different protests. Common or garden anarchists, no different to football hooligans.

And you know what, every time someone ends up on the news having glued themselves to a petrol pump (remember that I've no skin in that game, I don't own a car), public support for a crackdown soars.

Not for me to be a thread police god forbid and I'm probably worse than most but can we get back to discussing how awful Liz Truss is? 😀

I honestly don't know how awful Truss will be, as someone said "Will the real Liz Truss stand up"

She seems to have under gone more transformations than Paul on the road to Damascus.

Most oddly on Europe, in RL i don't know anyone who has gone from very pro EU to totally anti nor vice versa.

I can only assume to changes to suit her ambition.

I very rarely agree with you @Festoonlights politically , but with regards to Putin and Ukraine I do.

It's not difficult to see why Putin was after Ukraine- Russias wealth is based on very few actual assets and apparently things were getting a bit 'tighter' for the rich.
Ukraine has a ton of varied resources that only now are becoming obvious .

The only party that has appeased Russia is the Conservatives, they did nothing when he invaded Crimea, nor did they do anything when the report came out in 2012 that Russia had poisoned Litvinenko with a nuclear poison in the UK.. then did nothing again when Russia used nerve agent in Salisbury, killing a british citizen.

I'm afraid that's not true at all. When Putin invaded Crimea in 2014, the British Government (initially the coalition, then Conservative majority from 2015) started supplying arms to Ukraine, and sending British personnel there to provide training to the Ukrainian forces. Operation Orbital.

We couldn't stop Russia taking Crimea in 2014. We could, and we have stopped Russia taking Kyiv in 2022.

On the subject of Salisbury, I recall the then Foreign Secretary (BJ) explicitly blaming the Russians for the attack. The then Leader of the Opposition (JC) however was determined to take the "sightseeing, tall spire, nothing to see here" claims at face value, asking if we should perhaps double-check with the Russians whether it really was novichok.

On Litvinenko, I'm wondering what more you were expecting the government to have done. An extradition request had long-since been sent and the Russians were ignoring it. Short of sending in the SAS, what more could the government do.

Incidentally the Russian attempt to interfere in the 2019 GE by leaking an NHS dossier could only have been done with the intention of engineering a Labour victory. Let's face it, Putin would have loved a Corbyn government - someone who would have pulled the UK out of NATO, disarmed and demilitarised the country.

@DdraigGoch when you talk about the Leader of the Labour Party you mean Corbyn. Yes that was disgraceful of him.
Corbyn has been thrown out of the Labour Party and most of his supporters have left the party or been thrown out.
The electorate were right not to elect Corbyn.
The Labour Party now have a centrist Leader Starmer who is hated by Corbyn supporters. They loathe him more than the Conservatives.

I was a Corbyn supporter who accepts Sir Keir and the centrist Labour Party. But what I would really like is PR and government of coalitions so we can destroy the Tory party as a party of government once and for all and put this madness well behind us. It's that simple at the next election vote tactically to get the Tory out and hope for a goodly LibDem presence (say c 50 seats) so we can get PR on the table once and for all.

So to the precis the let's not sue for peace argument - is to turn Ukraine into a meat grinder for the impoverished Russian conscripts, but they are miserable Russians hey - smash Ukraine into pieces and push Putin into potential dangerous escalation in the hope to destroy his ability once and for all.

You appear to be suggesting a ridiculously false choice between the current bloodshed and a quick and easy "let him invade and get it over with". Did you see what Russian troops did in Bucha? The raping and murdering of civilians would have been repeated across Ukraine if Putin's troops had not been stopped. Frankly I don't care if Russian conscripts are being fed into a "meat grinder". I care instead about the women and children who they are targeting. I'm not going to throw them under a bus just so that we can avoid killing too many of Putin's thugs.

Zelensky is absolutely right. Every Russian who does not speak out about this (and some brave souls have) is complicit.

Yes, I am aware that he is gone, and I haven't attempted to use "but Corbyn" as a reason to not support Labour in the future. This thread has been discussing events in the past (such as the 2014 invasion and the Salisbury poisonings) as a way to bash the Conservatives over the head and it is completely appropriate to compare the contemporaneous actions of the Opposition in that context. Claims that the Conservatives are in Putin's pocket just do not stand up to scrutiny (see what I said above about Operation Orbital etc.).

The UK did not supply weapons to Ukraine, that was specifically banned, only changed last October, when talks started to supply Ukraine with some UK missile systems.
Orbital was about training, not re equipping Ukraine's army, the UK did supply non lethal stuff, the thinking was they did not wish to antagonise Putin... worked out well.

If it was perfectly ok to arm Ukraine this year, why wasn't it possible to do so in 2014? thats illogical.

..and why did the Tory party keep taking Russian money? allowed Putin backed Russians to buy up large parts of London etc?

The USA put more sanctions on Russian companies than the UK did after Salisbury.

Under a different user name, i 've been ridiculed by tory supporters for calling Russia the USSR on some Brexit threads, the threat of Russia was very obvious and the UK should have been coming down extremely hard on money laundering and Russian political interference in the UK - how you defend (by ignoring) the Tories taking russian money would be laughable if it weren't so serious.

I get the JC argument and the leaked NHS dossier, though the Labour manifesto of 2019, called for more defence conventional spending... less nuclear... but why are you angry about that but fine with Russian interference in UK referendums?