French (and German) children don’t throw food

[Summersummersun]

I have heard of this book and think I need to read it.

Just got back from a foreign holiday where the majority of families were German.

All I saw around me were well behaved,
placid children. I lost count of the number of couples I saw on sun loungers at the pool whilst their (young) children played nearby, nicely, in the shallow pools. I also saw so many parents on their phones or reading, ignoring the children completely, whilst the children either sat and played at their feet, or just sat on the sun beds not really doing anything. Just…sitting. Quietly.

My children are not like this. They’re 6 and 3, and whilst the eldest is a decent swimmer he still needed a lot of interaction in the pool. And they would never just SIT THERE whilst DH and I ignored them. Ever. We were staying in a caravan and granted had limited stuff to entertain them there and then (mainly just stickers/books, no real toys) they rush around the house at home anyway and never sit and play with toys nicely (unless eldest is doing a Lego set).

I’ve never been so conscious of my inadequate parenting and children before, and we have been on plenty of Center Parcs/UK holidays. In fact one of the things I like about CP is the fact that you can relax with DC as there is always another one having a meltdown in the vicinity.

AIBU to think this? Are European children just better behaved?

I to would be interested in what differences you see. I was at a soft play birthday party in Canada yesterday. If anything I would say it's a little more unruly here.

My interpretation of the book was "neurotic American woman realises being a neurotic parent is unhelpful". She basically seemed to be on tenterhooks, helicoptering and overthinking every tiny thing all the time. Spoiler, the French mums she met didn't do this (and probably most sane parents of any nationality) so she relaxed and things got better.

It's a fun read though and I recommend it!

Took ds to France recently and he seemed pretty average compared to the other kids his age (3).

My nephews are German and definitely aren't better behaved than our kids!

In our most recent holiday the most annoying kids in the pool were French/Italian. Their parents were on sun loungers ignoring them whilst they grabbed toys in the pool and wouldn't return them.

The kids club staff thought my 3yo was the most adorable little boy ever. They didn't witness the daily meltdowns he had in our room.

I'm sure there are cultural differences but I think it's more nuanced. There is a huge variation in parenting within each culture too.

I got a lot of looks from people in the carpark and afterwards my husband said I was too heavy handed and embarrassed him. Can’t win!

Maybe they were looks of approval?

Or astonishment for controlling your son?

Would your husband have preferred that you did nothing & your son was hurt??

By contrast we recently holiday in a European resort and the Spanish children were mostly very very naughty!

I've noticed an awful lot of feeble parenting - very middle class area. Also the full on helicopter stuff - the children never ever have to entertain themselves, and treat their parents like slaves.

I think we're just very good at criticising ourselves in the UK. When it comes to eg binge drinking and loutishness, we might have a point, but I don't see a huge difference with kids and I have lived in a few different countries.

Also I think parenting varies within countries quite a bit. I do recognise the insipid UK parenting some people are describing but I don't recognise it being universal at all. I know plenty of very firm UK parents.

I think it's the combination of wishy washy followed by stern or sweary clamping down that gets you looks, @Fluffruff.

I see less helicoptering in the US than in the UK. Also more of an expectation that children will be independent - carry their own stuff for instance, or play in a swimming pool by themselves - respond the first time to an instruction by a parent, and adapt to the noise level of their surroundings. Older kids tend to be more comfortable conversing with adults. There are exceptions of course.

I did read the book when my little one was a newborn. I don't remember much of it though! Blame it on lack of sleep at the time.

I was at a birthday party recently where two kids (one being the birthday boy) kept pulling their trousers down and showing
their bottoms to each other and laughing. This was at the table while eating. Lots of growns-ups around them, looking a bit shocked and disgusted. No one said a word! So I guess this is part of the problem/ what could be different in other countries. Unless their parent is watching them, they get away with everything and they know it.

Not sure what is the solution. I wouldn't like someone telling my child off because what if he misunderstood my child's intentions etc. so I get why it's not happening too.

Don't worry my little man is an absolute terror needs constant attention and correcting. I'm regularly carrying him out of places like a suitcase. Meanwhile every other child seems to be sitting politely. Some kids are just more work than others.

The UK parents I know interact with their children constantly, or supervise them constantly, or provide their children with other entertainment (ipads, TV, etc) so the children never get bored and learn to entertain themselves, they never need to use their imagination. If your child is always engaged with, supervised or entertained then that's what they will always need

I think there’s some truth in this. In the U.K. we seem to have ended up with a perverse situation where we both cosset and hover over our children more than in other countries, and fob them off more with low quality, distracted interaction and screens.

In many other countries I’ve lived in/visited parents often have more proper conversations with their kids and treat them in a slightly more adult way, whereas here the line between ‘kids’ stuff’ and ‘adult stuff’ is much more clearly delineated, and the two worlds are kept quite separate. I’m quite unusual among our circle, I think, in making a point of talking things through with DD, explaining what we’re doing that say, chatting with her over dinner etc - most of our friends’ kids just have stuff done to them (vaccinations, holidays, starting school etc) with little discussion or preparation beforehand.

British parents are also often incredibly risk averse and reluctant to allow their DC to figure things out for themselves and take the accompanying knocks - hence the constant supervision, which children then grow accustomed to. As the parent of a 4 year old I see it constantly in the playground - parents discouraging their DC from attempting to climb things, saying it’s dangerous and they won’t be able to do it etc. At least one mum I know has passed her fear of heights on to her DC by freaking out every time he went on the climbing frame or up the steps to the slide. I think many other countries have a higher level of risk tolerance for their children.

As evidenced by this thread everyone seems to just think they are the only decent parent. Most of these comments just contradict each other.

This is funny because I said the exact opposite yesterday, would never read that book as it must be total lies! For context I live in France and just returned from a month long trip in the UK and through all the soft plays/parks/farms etc had very few problems. I’d never previously noticed a
difference in behaviour but since my eldest has hit school age it’s become more obvious. So many times I’ve had to stop other peoples children hurting mine and their parents are no where to be seen. I don’t quite understand it because on the whole I thought french parents were stricter and the schools certainly are! I will say the older kids seem much better behaved and generally very polite so at some point they must turn it around!

We were on a campsite with mainly Dutch and German families. Honestly, seemed the same as here. Lovely family next to us with 4 boys - but they were having their moments!

I live in Ireland. A friend has just moved back from England where she worked in a school. She was aghast at the pandering that went on. Don't tell a child that a spelling is wrong, just advise them there might be a better way of spelling it etc. Absolute nonsense.

Not saying Irish child rearing is perfect. Far from it. But there seems to be a cohort of English parents that are going way too far and creating spoilt monsters.

American here (as you might guess from my name) but moved to UK ages ago and my children have only ever lived here. I read the book a few years ago whilst we were on holiday in Charente-Maritime and enjoyed it but it's not just a French/German thing.

It's all variable. Some parents and children work well together and some don't. Some parents have one kind of expectations and others have another kind. Some children respond to this and some don't. Some people have two bookish boys and some people have two tear-away girls; Or a mix of these and more.

At 3 and 6, I would expect your children to need a certain amount of attention and close supervision in a pool or the sea no matter how well they get on in swimming lessons. At that age, they can't read chapter books independently and probably need regular physical exercise. My girls, although you would probably see them as sedate, were the same. I used to think about the irony of holidays: leave all your toys behind and go to this empty flat ...

Spot on. It goes for all of Scandinavia.

Objectively my children are well behaved. They’re two girls, both love colouring, happy to potter around the table if allowed (eg on a square on holiday) but also will sit down. I can’t ignore them (would have to give them an activity or talk to them!) at the table but at the beach they will play happily with small amounts of input.
Not my parenting really- just their temperament. I appreciate I’m lucky and don’t judge other kids!

Just back from a week in Germany and I can see where you are coming from. Children over there seem to fit in to day to day life much easier. You see so much more children out and about in the city (not doing child oriented activities at all).

At the time I didn’t think they were particularly well behaved, but looking back I didn’t see a single temper tantrum or the classic trying to run away.

@ElvisLeftTheBuilding I definitely agree with that. I’m guilty of it too, also of helicopter parenting.

@CustardCreamsAndMintTea Quite comforting to read about the birthday party!

I do think the comments on here about expectations are interesting. Other parents might expect compliance first time etc. I expect it, but it bloody well doesn’t happen often! I fully see where the wishy washy parenting comes from too as I witness it a lot, but it does seem to almost be what’s expected in the UK. And I also struggle to see a way around it - today in a shop both my DS’ were standing on something they shouldn’t have, so DH asked them to get off. They ignored him, and when he physically moved them, 3 year old got in a strop and the 6 year old blew a raspberry at him!

@NameChangeLifeChange I secretly wish I’d had two girls instead of two boys as that’s exactly how I imagine it 😫although I’m one of two girls and was definitely “spirited”.

I am French and I don't think it has anything to do with nationality but culturally children are expected to behave in certain circumstances (a restaurant for example).

My children (6 and 4) are not allowed to "buzz around" during adult quiet time. Not at all all day but maybe 45 minutes in the morning and 1 hour after lunch in the afternoon. It forces them to find something to do.

Before we enter a restaurant I will always warn them that we are going to a place with other adults and we can't be all over the shop or super loud.

Before going to a friend's place I also warn them that I want to talk to my friend so they can't buzz around us all the time.

If my child whines after a while I'll give them the choice to either stop or go to another room because it is annoying for everyone.

I think I am doing them a favour as it teaches them that there are rules to follow and that in a way life can be unforgiving.

By no means my children are perfect and they remain a full time job but I am also convinced that they thrive with boundaries and that it gives them security to know that me and my DH make the rules, not them.

We also spend a huge amount of time doing things with them and for them but there are times that are for mummy and daddy and that is non negotiable!

British parents are also often incredibly risk averse and reluctant to allow their DC to figure things out for themselves and take the accompanying knocks - hence the constant supervision, which children then grow accustomed to. As the parent of a 4 year old I see it constantly in the playground - parents discouraging their DC from attempting to climb things, saying it’s dangerous and they won’t be able to do it etc.

This is true. I’m a nursery teacher in a Scandi country, and the approach is very much to let the kids try until they succeed. For example if they can’t climb the climing frame themselves I would give them tips on how they could try and do it, but I would not help them. They need to figure it out. And I would not be overly enthustiastic when they make it (eagerly clapping my hands and yelling ’yeeeayhh!!!’), it’s more Well done, you could do it on your own. It’s important they know what it’s like to be bored, so they will invent their own games. And I think we talk to them much more in an adult way, no baby talk. Not saying it’s better, it’s just different..

*climbing frame, obviously

I think if you set boundaries from a very young age them kids know them from a young age and know there are consequences to misbehaviour. Mum of 3 boys who can be brought under control with the raise of an eyebrow rather than a raise of the voice.