Aibu to think the nurse crisis could be solved if they had an incentive for people to become nurses

[Starsinyoureyes13]

A student nurse doesn't get paid to study and train on the wards. 37.5 hours and due to lack of nurses they are working alongside nurses wouldn't it be better to pay the trainee nurses and give nurses a payrise rather than NHS squandering money on £60 pound an hour agency staff?

I did write a message earlier to cabsnotlint which disappeared. Other posters have covered what I wanted to say really. Which is that you’re ignorant to the role of the nurse so I’m amazed to hear you work in a hospital. I wonder why you feel the need to denigrate and minimise the input of nursing colleagues? Who, just for information are sometimes found outside hospitals too, in the wild and without the magical doctor summoning bleepers you speak about. Anyway the situation inpatient or community is diabolical for nurses. Patients are unsafe and more so due to ever lower nurse numbers. And numbers will keep lowering until nurses are treated as the skilled and valuable professionals they are.

The NMC code is clear that it covers the "limits of competence" standard. Band 4s are not held to the same competence standard as a Band 5. There are different standards of proficiency for Band 4s and the scope is prescriptive and limited.

The NMC has a great infographic on their website listing the difference between band 4 nursing associates and band 5 staff nurses, it is not just related to meds.

Nursing associate here.
We work within the code and the standards of proficiency for nursing associates.
Medication administration varies trust to trust.

Reading with intrigue

I had a place for Nursing this September as a mature student but got bugger all student finance so didn't go!

I'd imagine I'm not alone in this either!

I'm not minimising anything. I'm telling you that the nursing in general isn't that greatly paid. Weather you and others want to harp on about professionalism.. and I stand by my word there's a lot of hierarchy from what I've seen over the years. Especially if you are below a band 4 it's very bleak. Perhaps it's you who is ignorant yourself!

I qualified as an AHP over 2 years ago, been working on wards in the NHS since I qualified and I am just about to leave the NHS and do a non clinical role as I am extremely burnt-out. I'm 2 years in....it should not be like this.

Her current PT role with M&S is good money but not relevant at all to her chosen career.

Any PT job that involves working with the public is absolutely relevant to her chosen career, it involves communicating with lots of different people, don't underestimate how useful that experience will be for her.

Quite a few pay up to 60 pounds per hour. The nurses that are earning that are no way deserving of it. I have personally seen agency nurses do the bare minimum while the non agency staff are doing the rest.

I'm also currently a HCA in a GP practice... I do bloods, dressings, ecgs and so much more and I get £9.80 an hour...

I'm on Mat Leave and genuinely considering leaving the NHS and going to work in a supermarket.

Drugs can be extremely potent and they can have a tiny therapeutic window (the difference between under-treating the patient and killing them is very narrow). When I was a nurse, many of the drugs I administered were calculated in milligrammes (mg), some in microgrammes (mcg), some in mcg/kg/hr and some in mcg/kg/min. Some of the machines we used were set based on actual weight, others on ideal weight, etc. Many drugs come in different concentrations.

It really isn't as simple as 'reading a label'.

Cabsnotlint

I know nursing is badly paid 😳my point is it shouldn’t be. I’m not sure what point you’re making now? Yes I agree it’s a hierarchical system and it’s not particularly efficient, this is across all professions and sectors in nhs not just nursing. Yes I also agree below band 5 are paid and treated poorly too. However this thread was about nursing. Which requires a degree and professional registration and is in a recruitment crisis. Your suggestion to that was reverting to non degree nurses because that was fine before. I still disagree.

@Leavetheguntakethecannoli nobody is forcing you to agree. 😳

The issue is retention. No point throwing money at something that several years in people are desperately trying to leave. The issue is experience. Make it a professional people want to stay in, then deal with increasing recruitment

@EmmaH2022, yes I'm a bit fed up of all this "nursing is a vocation" rubbish. I'm a nurse with a nursing degree, a specialist practice post graduate diploma and I'm a nurse prescriber. I want a wage to reflect that. I'm not Florence Nightingale doing this job out of the goodness of my heart. I have a family and children to support. In some ways it feels to me, saying it's a vacation is like making out its a hobby. We are bot angels in disguise, we are working professionals. On Friday I had to tell a GP what to prescribe.

Sorry about my typos 🙄

I think the priority at the moment should be on social carers, bringing their pay and contracts in line with them NHS, so that it can be an attractive career where staff are paid what they are worth.

A functioning social care system would free up beds in hospital allowing nurses and all HCP to get on with the jobs they are trained to do and paid for. This would improve morale, staff retention and cost efficiency.

Social care is mostly private.

Ya know

That thing that eversaus will fix all the problems in the nhs?

Nursing is a career not a vocation or a "calling". That's why people go to university to study 3 or 4 years to get into their chosen career. The wages are disgraceful as bridge gaping is keeping the nhs afloat. Specialist Nurses and general nurses bridging gaps with doctors
Bands 3 and 4s bridging gaps with nurses.
No pay to reflect this at all. Meaning stress and poor morale amongst staff dominates the wards, as long as the t's are crossed and i's dotted that's all the nhs bosses care about, not the staff, certainly not the paitents and not the taxpayer.

@Starsinyoureyes13 I would hope both nursing and medicine would be a vocation. A career is something people do for various reasons e.g. money, interest, status. But when you are dealing with ill and vulnerable humans there must be a real dedication to the people you serve. I agree nurses should be paid more and have better conditions, and personally I don't think their degree should involve a loan.

I qualified last year aged 51. I've just dropped my hours as I'm better off picking up specialist bank shifts. How is that right? The situation is complex and dire. Issues:
Short staffed
Management (lack of leadership)
Low morale (see above)
Running on goodwill- normal to miss breaks, leave late, worry that you've missed something.
Datix's used to constantly whip you.
Social media with people commenting about how bad the local hospitals are.
Being hit, spat at, verbally abused. Constantly apologising for the waiting times, lack of beds, not answering the phone.
Pay- whilst none of us came into this for the money it would be nice for my colleagues not to have to rely on food banks.

Bollocks to nursing being a vocation. Fuck me, it's not the 1950's. The concept of Drs being 'the boss' is hopelessly old fashioned - we are a multidisciplinary team with different skills and areas of expertise.

The problem isn't recruitment or training, it's retention of staff. The pay - not 'bad' when you look at it on its own, but it in no way reflects the level of responsibility and stress or the emotional toll it takes. Constantly being short staffed. Raising safety concerns and reporting near-misses that management ignore. Dealing with serious injury, critical illness and trauma and looking after people going through some of the worst moments of their lives.

As an ED nurse (so a specialist area) I can earn very good hourly rates with Agency work - it is rarely worth the stress.

I'm also planning my exit like @hazelnutlatte and studying software development. So many of us burned out after covid.

@TheLoupGarou Everyone knows nursing is hard. It requires physical and mental endurance and a capacity to care that most of us don't have. That is why we call it a vocation, because to commit yourself to such a gruelling job requires real dedication, or a 'calling.' It's the same for doctors. But obviously the pay, compared to doctors, is an insult and should be increased. The conditions sound horrendous. We would all like our medical staff to be as supported as possible, because our lives are in their hands. It is worrying, as a patient, to hear nurses saying their job is not a vocation.

I know this will be controversial but some of the practical 'skills' we have as nurses, could be done by patients and often are in other countries. Where we come in is when things aren't right, we are trained to recognise that dip in someones sats, is that normal for them given their condition and what is happening for them now ? 87% is fine for some and pretty dire for others ! we increase the frequency of obs, just to be on the safe side, that sudden drop in cognition, infection ? something else ? that gut feeling that things aren't quite as they should be.
That is why my seemingly mindless chat whilst admitting someone onto the ward had meaning, baseline ob's don't tell you how breathless someone is, yes I know we measure respirations, but how well and long can they hold a conversation ? that is something you can pick up on without counting whilst you are doing another task in the bay, doesn't show how they are experiencing the pain they have decribed on the pain score, are they guarding, quiet, is the pain new/different/changed location ? doesn't describe their pallor or if they are showing signs of cyanosis , could be normal for them or not ? The chat includes past and present to gain an insight into memory/cognition, you can get an idea of their support network/family for discharge planning.

Every conversation is useful.