Aibu to think the nurse crisis could be solved if they had an incentive for people to become nurses

[Starsinyoureyes13]

A student nurse doesn't get paid to study and train on the wards. 37.5 hours and due to lack of nurses they are working alongside nurses wouldn't it be better to pay the trainee nurses and give nurses a payrise rather than NHS squandering money on £60 pound an hour agency staff?

I can pick up £40 an hour shifts through agency any day I want and even that isn’t enough to convince me to do a shift! 😩

Is that ward nursing?

I wouldn't work on a ward again for all the tea in China.

Having a nursing degree doesn't mean you are in any way, a better nurse than someone who did the diploma, but it was supposed to mean that we would be viewed more as a profession and as a result, get better pay and working conditions. not sure that worked ?

I did the diploma back in the Project 2000 days. The attrition rate was probably about a third over the three years and I think it's still about the same now ?

I see nurse training a bit like learning to drive, you learn the theory and hopefully get lots of practice but the 'real' experiential learning doesn't begin until you pass, and then the reality of the job is quite often a baptism of fire !
Which leads us to the support of newly qualified staff, which is quite frankly shit in a lot of cases, and I completely get why, low staffing levels mean that the ability to support those staff properly is limited, if everyone is firefighting, there is very little scope for being supportive.

However I do think certain areas and a particular management style, make it far worse than it actually needs to be, don't blame the 'caught in the headlights' newly qualified nurse, for poor time management skills, ( the number one excuse, used by poor management for eons in the NHS, to place the blame of inadequate staffing levels, squarely at the feet of the poor buggers who show up ) of course they have poor time management skills, they are new, they have been thrown in at the deep end with fuck all support or any of the lovely supernumerary time they were promised when they took the job.
Instead of constantly berating them for not having the skill set of someone with year's of experience, how about showing some of that empathy we are all supposed to have in bucket fulls ? It isn't a big ask, but can make a huge difference to that person and retention as a whole.
I remember the first ward I worked on when I qualified, people still talk about it to this day, stuff of legends, we had two senior nurses in charge, one was the 'poor time management, its all your fault, even though you have had three arrests this morning' manager and the other was 'its absolutely shit, but lets make the best of it and I will finish your drugs round so you can get a drink/have a wee' manager. Thank God for the latter, otherwise a lot of very dedicated and fantastic nurses would be doing something else.

But you aren't being asked to read a label, you will need to calculate how much of a med a patient can be given according to their weight, other medications etc and make sure you can calculate that.

I think a functional maths test would be fairer though, as part of applying.

people saying they don't get £60 an hour - I assume that's the rate the NHS pay with the agency fee added on, so the cost per hour, not the amount the nurse is paid.

poster said nursing should be a vocation - we are 100+ years past that stage, surely? Many women will have gone to nursing as one of very few acceptable occupations. We'd have about 30 nurses in the country if we saw it as a vocation?

@BirmaBrite

My first nursing job was on a ward with a senior nursing team that were very much "why are so shit at time management and just in general, even though it's your 4th ever shift newly qualified, we haven't got the capacity to give you any supernumerary time, a preceptor or any training or support, and you can't book any annual leave cos it's all booked up already". She was an absolute bitch, I stayed 6 months and luckily moved somewhere nice

I've been a qualified nurse for 30 years, band 5. I realised a few weeks ago my take home pay has only increased by £250 a month at the most since 2010. I'm part time due to child care.
There is this belief by some people that nurses shouldn't be paid well. Whenever the Tories are on TV they say the average wage of a nurse is £31,000. Lot of crap, for most nurses it would take around 10 years to get to this level unless they got promoted.
When the recession happened in 2008, the Tories also spouted that nurses were lucky to have a job so they could try and justify pay freezes for years.
A lot of nurses like myself have to go part time for child care reasons, the nearly 13 hour shifts, constantly rotating on and off nightshifts is brutal. Not getting away on time, never getting time back, not getting to go on study days. I also paid a few hundred pounds to do a course last year, my choice I suppose.
I used to do a lot of bank, the money is rubbish as you don't get the tax allowance. I've joined an agency to do the occasional shift as I can pick the hours that suit me and the money is a lot better.
Nurses have to constantly keep up to date with latest knowledge and skills, paying the NMC £120 a year for the privilege. Also paying the RCN monthly fees who have been useless and only now talking about striking when things are really dire.
There has been a huge amount of nurses leaving my area, a critical care unit, in the last year. Covid has been a big reason too with many burnt out and wanting a change.

Retention is the problem and nurses are very poorly looked after as employees, both in social care and healthcare.

Burnout is high because support is low. You end up doing a lot of unpaid hours-for example to keep up with revalidation, to finish up notes, taking phone calls off duty, constant pressure to pick up shifts at short notice. Guilt tripped often into working over 60 hours a week. Supervising care staff and being legally responsible for what they do on a shift.

Frequently "forced" overtime when no registrant turns up to take handover. Increasingly expected to manage with larger patient cohorts who are increasingly complex.

COVID for many-including me-is the straw that broke the camel's back.

You can recruit as many as you like, but you are trying to fill a sieve with water until HCPs are treated better

Like pp said, fixed shifts would help massively. I know two people who left nursing/ midwiferyas they couldn't afford childcare or couldn't find it (both happened to be single mothers).

I'm entitled to my opinion. Can't remember if it was your original quote but never less I was just pointing out the facts.

I have 11 years hospital experience. In my own experience all these types of different fancy nurses have become a shit show in many ways and tbh it's got to the stage where I have to ask people's job role and what it entails because they all look the bloody same (God help the patients). There's too many cooks here. Sorry but nursing is full of hierarchy but WITHOUT the salary compared to other industries. This professionalism is all well and good but that doesn't pay the bills.

Band 4 and band 4 registered well what's the point of a band 5 if the registered band 4 can give meds also? It's a shit show to say the least.

Also Band 2/3s also can be highly skilled also. Again I personal think it's not right hence the union up in arms at the moment.

It’s retention that’s the issue. Poor support is one issue. There is so much pressure placed on nurses and doctors. The managers above, the patients, the relatives, nothing is good enough. The poor pay and high expectations are leaving people burnt out. To the person who thinks a nurse doesn’t need GCSE Maths…they have to calculate medication and IV fluids…they really need it.

Band 4s aren't registered nurses though, they're associates. Of course they, and band 2 and 3 can be highly skilled - who said they weren't?

Not sure I like your description of 'different types of fancy nurses' though...

Band 2/3 and Band 4 do not have the same legal responsibilties either.

I said band 4 and registered band 4s it's a thing now. Don't you have them in tour trust? Google it.

Band 4s are registered the ones that can give meds.

It sounds like nurses are slowly becoming as skilled as doctors. Maybe we should just make everyone start as a nurse with an option to train up to becoming a doctor eventually, if they are capable of it.

No they don't. But often the nurses rely on them heavily as they themselves as they simply don't have time on a heavy ward. Ultimately its the RN responsible your right about that "legally".

DD is a mature nursing student and cannot manage on the bursary
I help where I can - she also does bank work for her previous NHS job and does a couple of care shifts a week

See my previous thread, posted months ago and the staffing situation is worse than ever.
I've just worked the busiest weekend ever recording in the district nursing service.
98 home visits in 1 day with 4 rgns, a team leader whose new in post and never worked a weekend and 2 CSW. Each person covered over 50 miles in their 10 shift, which was supposed to be 7.5hr. One rgn that was due to work was admitted to hospital HDU she was so unwell. Another tested positive for covid so 6 rgns on duty reduced to 4 in the space of 1 hour. Everyone of those patients needed to be seen, no silly callouts. I'm on antibiotics currently myself for a chest infection with no voice but I worked as there was no one else. IT systems are diabolical and never work as they should, we wrote up our patient notes at home as no time on shift.
Team leader shocked: telling someone the issues no substitute for them being there and seeing the hopelessness.
Everyday is like this.
No one can sustain it.
Teamleader sent emils over 8 week period requesting staff cover 32 shifts with overtime excess hours as there was no agency staff.
The worst thing is upper management dont want to fix it. They are incompetant.

I work in the NHS and throughout the pressures of covid for the last year my team has been decimated by absence, sickness, unfilled posts and staff being taken to work elsewhere. This has resulted in a skeleton staff of 15 where there used to be 32 to do the same work.
Management have also decided to change work hours from 9to5 to 8-4, 10-6 and 2-10. Thus covering more work hours with less staff.
Now we do twice as many of these shifts than previously ie I used to do 1x 10-6 shift a fortnight, now its 2 or 3 a week. We have been through the grievance procedure with the Unions and got nowhere and our contracts have been changed.
My problem is now that there simply isn't enough staff to cover the shifts and management is now changing rotas and off duty at a moments notice. Previously offduty was made up 3 months in advance with set rota for working weekends. Now this has been scrapped and we are being told we will be working 1 weekend in 4 instead of 1 in 8. We are often only told the day before what shift we will be working as they are constantly changing. (4 versions of offduty for March). When someone phones in sick another person has to stay on to cover the shift as there is no one else. Very few requests for annual leave or days off are being honoured currently. One boss threatened to change our rota to that of the police where you are allocated days off and annual leave with no discussion.
I guess I'm wondering what we can do if anything. When we complain about work life balance we are told we must meet the needs of the service. The unions are powerless. HR department said in a teams meeting if we didn't like it we could just leave.
Staff are leaving in droves and new starts only last weeks before leaving again...

I am not criticising band 4s or band 2 or 3s-I have been so grateful for them during my time nursing. But the legal responsibility is a huge factor in the stress level

The incentive being better paid and less stress

My aunt is a nurse and she has aged a decade since the pandemic no one cared about her putting all hours in to make sure patients where treated she never got a thank you or bonus NOTHING

Ultimately its the RN responsible your right about that "legally".

Exactly!

And I'm not sure the talk of whether it should be a degree profession, or how professional band 2-4s are is relevant. The whole working conditions are awful and need overhauling. For all. Not just band 5s, but all. Retention is the issue. The NHS is on its knees.

My Dd has just started 3rd year, she has loved her placements so far (starts a new one from next week) and is full of optimism about qualifying and starting a job in 2023 but this thread makes me concerned about her professional future. She has been unable to get on the bank so far and is really frustrated as she realises that she would be gaining valuable skills in preparation for being newly qualified. Her current PT role with M&S is good money but not relevant at all to her chosen career.

Staff retention is a massive problem due to poor pay for what we do and responsibility we have, unpaid overtime pretty much everyday/shift to cover absolute priority visits (I'm a community nurse), and that's with rushing round, many patients don't get seen as they should because we simply don't have the staff, we suffer verbal abuse from understandably worried and annoyed patients/carers/relatives, we are go to places alone that are dangerous, we pay a lot for fuel and don't get it all back...... I could go on and on! We risk our pin every shift as we can't give the care we want to and often need to despite our best efforts and often making ourselves ill trying to.
It's so frustrating! Public expectations are higher than ever.
Ultimately I do love my job tho believe it or not 🤣❤️

@Greenybluetowel My advice to your DD is to be incredibly picky about her preceptorship post. Staffing is so bad, she will be able to be picky. That first post is crucial in gaining confidence and learning self care. Make sure she learns to say no to overtime she doesnt want.

I may have left the profession but nursing can be the absolute best job in the world. If conditions were better, I would never have left.

Some Band 4s are registered though what do you mean? Band 4s even if they don't give meds still take a team and do all their own notes for their patients. You as a Band 5 would not be responsible for their patients in any way. I don't understand your point. You would only be responsible for Band 2/3 because technically they are your patients.

If a Band 4 made a mistake they probably would be sacked similar to a nurse. It's really not that different like your making it. Band 4s work along side the 5s just some don't give the meds.

Why are you arguing with me? I didn't state that nursing didn't need a degree. You have misunderstood me I just don't agree with the whole professionalism for the better in today's generation that's all.... tbh I think it's an insult given the wages. I am well aware you need maths even a HCA does to even get on an apprenticeship to be a HCA. I'm well aware..