To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

[Digita]

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

Whenever I hear people arguing why faith in any sort of higher being is 'stupid' or 'delusional' I wonder if they've thought through the wider implications of a godless society. It might not be all that it's cracked up to be... the idea of higher beings might be invented but invented for a reason too. Is there a need for a philosophical concept of something more for accountability, law and order?

“Society needs reasons for people to tell the truth even when it is to their disadvantage.” Why swear on a Bible? The Courts have kept swearing an oath on religious texts because there’s still a psychological, moral force behind it.

"Co-operation is a key component in human interaction and also, according to new research from the University of British Columbia, the spread of civilisation. Not because for any altruistic reason, though; instead it might be directly down to a fear of a vengeful god." Fear of punitive gods linked to rise of human civilisation’

‘A new study published in the journal, Nature, tests the theory that communities are fair and cooperate with outsiders because of the fear of divine retribution.’ ‘Moralistic gods, supernatural punishment and the expansion of human sociality’

@DinosaurDuvet ”Also, religion has probably caused more bloodshed and war than in anything else in history.”

Fighting for land and Resources also cause bloodshed and war without religion.

I read somewhere that the successful religions that survive now are through being military powers historically.

There was a Pharaoh who said that soldiers needed religion and god to fight loyally to the death. Promise of afterlife and all that. Because they’re putting their lives on the line and that’s a huge ask. So it’s like the Pharaoh needed to give soldiers a higher purpose for what they were fighting for if it was unlikely those soldiers would see the fruits of any victory on earth (because they might die in battle).

The military historically had close links to religion. There were even gods of war - as well as peace (that came with victory).

At war memorial arboretums there’s a huge emphasis on how soldiers fought for ‘honour, God, Queen/King and country’ that kind of thing.

If god was taken out the equation then how would that impact the military?

The military is important for defence.

Hera seems to team up with Athena. Both watchful.

“I've never had a believer come up with a credible shred of evidence in my life.”

But you wouldn’t accept a shred of evidence because of pre-existing bias anyway.

I’m also curious what evidence people expect? God is not likely to be a performing monkey.

A watchful god(dess) in radio silence may not want to offer evidence. Might giveaway her whereabouts lol 😂

You also say, ‘in my life’, but human life isn’t that long of a time on an immortal god timespan. That’s why maybe hundred and thousands of years worth of material is needed to be considered in any serious philosophical discussion about god. And even then it’s hard to get the head around the magnitude in time and space.

Gods have time on their side. They can wait things out for a few generations while they get their ducks in order.

“So until I see evidence then surely it is all "imaginary"? Or maybe fictional is a better word.”

But the imaginary has its uses. Imagination is a sign of intelligence. Seeing beyond what you see. Einstein was all for imagination.

I think the problem with a lot of religion might be discomfort to address the imaginative side out of fear that means ‘not real’. Imagination has way more potential than being chained to one book.

This is not a plus.

have you ever served I'm the military op?

Or, people should be decent, honest and moral because that's the right thing to do. And not because they fear eternal torture. Just throwing that out there

Ideally. They should. But it’s naive to ignore that is not how all people work. Otherwise we’d have no need for the rule of law or a justice system.

Humans are, at base level, animals. People are selfish. Survival instincts can sometimes bring out the worst in people too.

Being decent, honest and moral wouldn’t get them some people very far in their careers. Never seen someone manipulating office politics and walk over their colleagues to get a promotion?

As upthread, some of the highest earning and important roles (CEOs, lawyers etc) are associated with being psychopathic and sociopathic. Ruthlessness seems to be admirable in some people.

@Boxowine ”If you want peace prepare for war”

@drbuzzaro Nope. I’ve read some ancient military history, but I appreciate that’s not the same.

Been to a few war memorial arboretums where there are lots of observations “For King/Queen and Country”, “ God save the King/Queen”. Not that different to the reverence the ancients had for their monarchs, gods and nation.

Or are you suggesting that’s all propaganda and it’s completely different for those serving?

The types that will manipulate a system, whatever system it is. They’ll assess it and mould themselves into the image they need to best prosper. You’ll find them in the upper echelons of all flavours of autocracy.

(As an aside I always thought Stalin was a ‘good’ example of a psychopath, versus Hitler who comes across to me as having had BPD. I’ve always wondered on that one)

Reminds me of Odysseus. He was favoured by a god for his cunning ability to manipulate- hence being behind the idea of the Trojan Horse with the help of a god.

But the multitude of gods meant he had the support of one god, but his character flaws for arrogance and deceit earned him the wrath of another god.

For being clever, Odysseus still made his honours to the gods and part of his cleverness was a wariness about the gods.

In Stephen Fry’s retelling of Troy, someone suggests a lottery is “thanks to the gods”. Odysseus was a bit more wary and insightful, saying something like “if the gods are involved and have anything to do with this then it’s more likely a curse”.

Just look at Star Lord's dad in Guardians of the Galaxy!

@stopitstopitnow "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

But aren't "Gods" supposed to have absolute power? If so, doesn't it follow that they are then corrupt?

Gods plural wouldn’t have absolute power individually because they’ll be sharing it in different domains. Maybe the manager of them all, like Zeus/Jupiter would have close to absolute power - but he’s often presented as unfaithful to his wife etc.

Regardless, if the gods keep a watchful eye on human law, order and justice then you don’t want to get on their wrong side. Especially if they’ve got the capacity for corruption too.

In Stephen Fry’s retelling of Troy, someone suggests a lottery is “thanks to the gods”. Odysseus was a bit more wary and insightful, saying something like “if the gods are involved and have anything to do with this then it’s more likely a curse”.

ans the Trojan war itself! On the Trojan side you had Artemis, Aphrodite, Ares, and Apollo, and the Greeks had Hephaestus (lol), Hera, Hermes, Athena and Poseidon. Human theatre playing out the squabbles of bored gods.

Odysseus knew that the attentions of the gods was rarely a herald of good fortune. Pay your respects and keep your head down.

I haven’t read that trilogy. I should, really.

@whumpthereitis The trilogy is brilliant!

“Human theatre playing out the squabbles of bored gods.”

But just think how theatrical some court room dramas can be?

It’s like a stage, with dressing up in wigs etc. Lots of performance involved.

I can see how gods might be interested in human law and justice for entertainment value too.

Wouldn’t that be a twist on the ‘god is watching you’?
Yes, but it’s not for any ‘sanctified or holy’ reasons; it’s for entertainment and sport. There would be rules being paid attention to as in any sport too, so perjury would be a foul that would get flagged up.

“Odysseus knew that the attentions of the gods was rarely a herald of good fortune. Pay your respects and keep your head down.”

Not paying respect to gods earned their attention too… not a safe bet from an atheist position either.

Odysseus still caught the gods’ attention because of his cunning and skilfulness, so paying respects and keeping his head down wasn’t enough. He didn’t want to go to war and even feigned madness, but got caught and ended up being away for 20 years.

The gods bring mixed fortunes and act out of self-interest. Once on their radar you’ve got to play along… because they’re gods.

Always felt Cassandra was a complex character. On stage her fellow humans don’t believes her true prophecies. But the audience pay attention to what she says, because they know she knows what’s going to happen next.

Also, if Apollo cursed Cassandra then why does she choose to become his priestess? That story never added up.

@whumpthereitis why lol to “Hephaestus (lol)”?

Not sure the modern British army are still threatening people with the wrath of God.

Aphrodite and lover (Ares) on one side, the husband on the other. Because of course.

No. I don’t think so.

tbh I don’t know enough so had a quick google to see what was out there on the topic of the modern military and god or religion.

How Religious Are Our Armed Forces? Forces News looked at how faith in the British military compares to the British public. Data here: www.forces.net/military-life/diversity/how-religious-are-our-armed-forces

”Figures have shown that, among the 99% of UK regulars who declared their faith, over 69% are of Christian denomination.”

Church of England (who’s head is the monarch, so relevent to the ‘For King/Queen and Country’ motto) have a range of prayers for the military:

www.churchofengland.org/prayer-and-worship/topical-prayers/prayers-armed-forces

“Prayers for those serving in the Armed Forces, on active service, and from the Field Service Book of the British Army.”

There’s a subtle military presence in many churches and cathedrals. Though only for pomp and ceremony and war memorial stuff. But still suggests a connection between religion/god and military.

CofE has a page dedicated to flags and military colours in relation to the Royal British Legion too.

www.churchofengland.org/resources/churchcare/advice-and-guidance-church-buildings/flags-and-military-colours

In Stephen Fry’s retelling of Troy, someone suggests a lottery is “thanks to the gods”. Odysseus was a bit more wary and insightful, saying something like “if the gods are involved and have anything to do with this then it’s more likely a curse”.

I'd suggest you watch Stephen Fry's interview with Gay Byrne on God.

As he quite correctly asserts that if there is a god then it is a very vile creature.

Have seen that. If god is vile then that’s more of a reason not to piss god off or get on god’s radar.

That’s why Odysseus paid his respects and kept his head down, although he still caught their eye because of his usefulness to the gods.

Link here if anyone wants to see:

“Stephen Fry on God | The Meaning Of Life | RTÉ One”

Note really there is no reason to worship a vile creature, and probably worse than the devil if you believe.

There’s a difference between worshiping (and expecting reward) to not pissing off a god.

God and Devil possibly two sides of same coin.

Like Dr Jekyll and Hyde. In which case, might be tactical to keep the good side sweet.

So you think it's acceptable for a god to give people cancer, even of they did exist I'd revile them.

If you think it's acceptable to worship a scumbag that's Upto you, it's funny you talk about morals but a god with none is ok with you

Amazing how Mr Fry gets so angry with a deity he doesn’t believe in! 😀