To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

[Digita]

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

Whenever I hear people arguing why faith in any sort of higher being is 'stupid' or 'delusional' I wonder if they've thought through the wider implications of a godless society. It might not be all that it's cracked up to be... the idea of higher beings might be invented but invented for a reason too. Is there a need for a philosophical concept of something more for accountability, law and order?

“Society needs reasons for people to tell the truth even when it is to their disadvantage.” Why swear on a Bible? The Courts have kept swearing an oath on religious texts because there’s still a psychological, moral force behind it.

"Co-operation is a key component in human interaction and also, according to new research from the University of British Columbia, the spread of civilisation. Not because for any altruistic reason, though; instead it might be directly down to a fear of a vengeful god." Fear of punitive gods linked to rise of human civilisation’

‘A new study published in the journal, Nature, tests the theory that communities are fair and cooperate with outsiders because of the fear of divine retribution.’ ‘Moralistic gods, supernatural punishment and the expansion of human sociality’

@whumpthereitis ”Is that not though also the distinction between sanity and psychosis? What is the differentiation? Is it scale? What is the difference between a religious experience, and someone believing that aliens are communicating with them through the television? Would the latter cease to a symptom of mental illness if millions subscribed to that view?”

Probably is scale. And a fine line between imagination and reality. Thin Line Between Genius and Insanity too.

Mental health medicine is also not a hard science. Surprising amount of social, economic and political influence in mental health medicine according to Nathan Filer. The goal posts move all the time it seems.

The ‘divine frenzy’ experienced by the once celebrated Oracle at Delphi would probably be classified as ‘psychosis’ now and treated with stigma. And yet the Oracle at Delphi was celebrated for a reason and had people from all over the ancient world flocking to her for her uncanny insights.

Maybe believing in a god is a bit insane. But maybe we need a bit of insanity to measure sanity? Or, just escape from life and enjoy life more?

The ancient Greeks had Dionysus as a god of insanity (but also god of wine 🍷 and other ecstasies that makes life enjoyable). He was counterbalanced at Delphi by Apollo who was very much a god of reason.

The story of Dionysus shows him/her going through a lot of trauma, so the insanity makes a bit of sense. It’s like the ecstasy Dionysus represents counterbalances painful trauma. And he’s the one who gets reborn over and again - I read that Dionysus is the Greek god that inspired the idea of Jesus and resurrection. A comeback from suffering is appealing to the imagination (individual and collective).

I read that Dionysus is the Greek god that inspired the idea of Jesus and resurrection.

Interesting. I heard the virgin Mary is a reworking of ancient nature and fertility goddesses.

People have been recycling and co-opting earlier deities for as long as they've existed, sometimes because it appealed, often for reasons of conquest and subjugation of the conquered. There's a reason why many churches are built on pre-Christian places of worship. Christmas trees have their roots in pagan traditions. There really isn't anything new under the sun, deities are a bit like fashions. I mean, boot cut jeans are apparently in again as well.

@gnilliwdog ”Interesting. I heard the virgin Mary is a reworking of ancient nature and fertility goddesses.”

Bettany Hughes suggests that Aphrodite was reworked as the Virgin Mary. She was the mother of Rome as Venus. Then morphed into Mary.

Odd, though, as Aphrodite was also the goddess of love, and I assume not celibate, so quite different to Mary.

Static deities don’t sound like real deities. Evolving deities makes more sense for just how life cycles work too. Maybe that’s the appeal of Dionysus even though he’s the god of insanity (something that seems counterintuitive to ‘want’ in any rational society). He’s reborn and recycled.

Upthread @ErrolTheDragon used the phrase “chained to one book”.

I thought that was interesting. If the god in the Old Testament is real then he’s probably moved on and evolved. But the text hasn’t kept up.

Pre-literate societies may have read the times as and when they were more mindfully in the present, taking divinities in their stride. But going with the flow gods might not be helpful for human civilisation that needs rule of law and order.

In whatever form Dionysus took, he was also brutal in any vengeance.

Lady Justice might be straight laced, calm and collected but can be like: “be good and follow the rule of law or else you risk the god of insanity, Dionysus, losing his shit.”

That would also explains why god is also viewed as monstrous by some too - but it’s the idea that you don’t want to unleash the monster. So behave.

I've yet to catch up on a few posts, but I still can't get past this:

The OP asserts that we separate god from religion. Got it.

But if humanity does so, isn't god reduced to a watchful god who may disapprove of our actions.

I can't see how that has the power over mankind to force people to behave.

It's a fairly innocuous outcome.

It's only when you introduce the facets of religion like guilt and shame and sin that has any desired effect.

Without religion god is rendered a harmless entity.

So the idea that a watchful god so

Posted too soon (user error) but you get the idea.

@AhNowTed ”watchful god”

Maybe a watchful god who monitors our actions in relation to all things, from human civilisation, justice, animals and to the health of the planet. A watchful god may well see them all threads of the same tapestry and needs to keep an eye. Humans are the dominant species on earth so that’s why there would be greater interest in human affairs such as justice than other animals.

The OP was about god in relation to law and order, so that would be the purpose of being watchful. A watchful god would be watching the laws of nature, but also human laws too because that has knock on effects on laws of nature.

@Digita

Yeah I get what you're saying, but where's the consequence of displeasing watchful god?

Apart from our own conscience, and to me that's just not enough to affect any change in human behaviour.

Whenever Christian women start preaching or being evangelical I always think of the below passage.

"Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing,if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."

And then wonder how many conveniently ignore that teaching while preaching faith in the rest of it?

If the god in the Old Testament is real then he’s probably moved on and evolved.

I'm pretty sure the Judeo-Christian god is supposed to be outside of time and space, the same from everlasting to everlasting.

I wouldn’t typify Dionysus as the god of insanity. Not wholly, anyway. He’s the god of wild abandon, of wine and revelry. I do think the Greeks, and Romans, better covered the aspects of human nature in the pantheon, and the acknowledgment of these aspects both good and bad (and indulgences of them).

I see the appeal of this over the Abrahamic religions at least, but when you consider Christianity as a religion of slaves then of course it holds abnegation and denial of self as a virtue. Of course if your earthly life is spent in miserable service you’ll want to feel it is for something, that your suffering is in fact noble and will be rewarded in the next life. Ironically, I think that is a major aspect of why it has been utilised so successfully, as it is in itself bondage.

“Yeah I get what you're saying, but where's the consequence of displeasing watchful god?”

Well it’s like having a witness to wrongdoing that someone is denying. And the not knowing what a watchful god is capable of, be it subtle or not.

The idea of a possible god sending a message or sign was being discussed a lot during the pandemic. It was so big and surreal that people were sincerely asking, “is this god?”. Yes, there’s a scientific explanation too (a virus that came from the wet markets) but thinking about how long wet markets have been around and the eating of wild animals, then why now? And why so big and impactful too?

The timing may have played a part for a watchful god because they’d be able to see the trajectory (which is why gods are associated with prophecy: a watchful god has got a bigger picture vision). A watchful god had seen enough and decided to trigger a change in the direction in how the threads were being woven in a tapestry, so that the overall outcome changed.

In addition to practical lockdown and vaccines, I wonder if any world leaders also consulted ‘spiritual watchdogs’… like in ancient times when soothsayers, oracles and astrologers (skilled in the art of reading divine signs) would advise rulers and monarchs what message the gods and universe were sending.

“Apart from our own conscience, and to me that's just not enough to affect any change in human behaviour.”

There’s something to say about a guilty conscience though. Have you seen the movie ‘The Duke’? It’s based on a true story. At the end the real thief came forward out of conscience.

Conscience isn’t played out the same with all people.

Lack of conscience can be attributed to why psychopaths and sociopaths do so well to become CEOs etc. Really interesting list of professions associated with being psychopaths: www.businessinsider.com/professions-with-the-most-psychopaths-2018-5?r=US&IR=T#2-lawyer-9

Maybe the watchful god is a sociopath and psychopath but on a much bigger scale, with being a god and all that. So that’s a reason to be cautious under the eye of a watchful god.

You might have a better chance in your argument when them if you used a passage from New Testament. Awful stuff in the Old Testament gets explained away with ‘but then there was a New Testament’.

The New Testament is still pretty much the same old boys club, though. I don't see it as an improvement. Mary doesn't get much dialogue, and Mary Magdalen only crops up twice. Then there's the whore of Babylon in Revelations. I don't know if there are any other female characters, but it's mostly men who get to speak and dominate the text.

I forgot Salome.

@whumpthereitis ‘I do think the Greeks, and Romans, better covered the aspects of human nature in the pantheon, and the acknowledgment of these aspects both good and bad (and indulgences of them).’

But why don’t we use them again?

Even Stephen Fry has a soft spot for the Greek gods.

“Fry has repeatedly expressed opposition to organised religion, and has identified himself as an atheist and humanist, while declaring some sympathy for the ancient Greek belief in capricious gods.”

Loved his trilogy about the Greek myths and gods!

You might have a better chance in your argument when them if you used a passage from New Testament. Awful stuff in the Old Testament gets explained away with ‘but then there was a New Testament’.

Er... that passage is in the New Testament. 1 Timothy chapter 2. It says it's from Paul, though some biblical scholars dispute this.

Alright. Let’s say that was also the ‘God’ side of things getting a bit excited with their pen (never forget when a teacher suggested it was a phallic symbol when studying Handmaid’s Tale, ‘pen is envy’) and writing everything down.

The watchful god would probably be a Goddess. Looking on and thinking how unwise it is for the God side to be using their pens so eagerly. Give a few hundred or thousands of years and that pen won’t be so envious because people will not believe in God

Well, there's poor old Martha and her sister Mary. Never did like that story, it's explained as a lesson in priorities which would be ok if it was a parable but it's told as a real event.

@ErrolTheDragon Oh yes. I vaguely remember one was doing all the housework and the other was listening to Jesus, or maybe I remember it wrong. The Bible is just not inspiring to women. I think. It seems so dismissive of them. I am sure Ancient Egypt wasn't great for women either, but at least they had powerful goddesses that took no crap.

@gnilliwdog ”I am sure Ancient Egypt wasn't great for women either, but at least they had powerful goddesses that took no crap.”

Wasn’t Zeus so wary of the goddesses that he used to position them tactically?

Aphrodite came out the water and as soon as Zeus recognised her charm, Eros energy and the impact on the other gods, he arranged her marriage to a steady eddy god under the guise of being her protective father figure. Left unchecked, Zeus though Aphrodite would cause him problems governing all the gods. She was too much of a wild thing - marriage didn’t keep her faithful but probably meant she had a temple roof over her head thanks to her steady eddy hubby.

And yes it’s strange Aphrodite ever transformed into the Virgin Mary. But it’s Aphrodite and she’s a law unto herself and dances to the bear of her own drums. And that’s power.

@Digita I don't know much about Aphrodite, but that's an interesting story. I like the depiction of a headstrong female who is divine but also flawed and powerful. It seems to me that turning her into the virgin Mary cancelled her power, though.

If it's a watchful goddess you're after, I don't think it's Aphrodite you need. Surely you want Hera - she's got her hundred-eyed watchman Argus, and is the mother goddess. You can't lie to a mother and expect to get away with it, can you?