To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

[Digita]

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

Whenever I hear people arguing why faith in any sort of higher being is 'stupid' or 'delusional' I wonder if they've thought through the wider implications of a godless society. It might not be all that it's cracked up to be... the idea of higher beings might be invented but invented for a reason too. Is there a need for a philosophical concept of something more for accountability, law and order?

“Society needs reasons for people to tell the truth even when it is to their disadvantage.” Why swear on a Bible? The Courts have kept swearing an oath on religious texts because there’s still a psychological, moral force behind it.

"Co-operation is a key component in human interaction and also, according to new research from the University of British Columbia, the spread of civilisation. Not because for any altruistic reason, though; instead it might be directly down to a fear of a vengeful god." Fear of punitive gods linked to rise of human civilisation’

‘A new study published in the journal, Nature, tests the theory that communities are fair and cooperate with outsiders because of the fear of divine retribution.’ ‘Moralistic gods, supernatural punishment and the expansion of human sociality’

I've never had a believer come up with a credible shred of evidence in my life. But yet religion affects laws, education, holidays, women's rights, everything in my country 🙄

So until I see evidence then surely it is all "imaginary"? Or maybe fictional is a better word.

Of course organised religion has been a force for evil. Anyone can see that. It was organised religion that had Jesus crucified in the first place and organised religion that persecuted the early church. Throughout history some of the biggest opponents of New Testament Christianity have been organised religion of all sorts. The New Testament is full of warnings about it.

@Malie and just to be clear, when you concede that organised religion has been a force for evil, do you include Christianity in that?

I’m always amused by the way you people go to great lengths to excuse Narx. Almost like a cult. Of course Lenin wasn’t a murderer either I suppose?

it's as though you're obsessed. Marx was a philosopher who lived in poverty. If people misused his words that's on them. Kind of reminds me of something... can't quite put my finger on it.
Lenin believed in revolution - and considering what they revolted against, it is not surprising it was bloodthirsty. He wasn't a complete meglomaniac though, which is why Stalin managed to elbow him out and take over.

You could say this very same thing about phoney champagne socialist do-gooders, virtue signallers, etc. You don't have to be religious to behave in this way.

Well the use of words tells me all i need to know about where you stand. However we are talking about if religion is useful here, so of course i pointed out religious charities (who had been brought up before as being a Force For Good). Under socialism champagne is a desirable object and a true socialist will want champagne for all (who want it) rather than the 1%.

The entire point of the counter arguments to the premise of this thread is that no, religion alone doesn't make people act in a good way. The counterpoint of that is also true and nobody had said otherwise.

Well if you can show me what Jesus taught in the new Testament is a force for evil then please do

@Malie you are being wilfully disingenuous again and ignoring my point. I was not talking about Jesus and the New Testament. I was talking about abuse by priests in the Church, abuse by nuns in the Magdalene Laundries, the killing of babies and young children in orphanages run by the religious and the efforts of the church to cover all of these up. Is that evil by organised religion that you are willing to acknowledge?

@Malie all your arguments are disingenuous and in bad faith. There is absolutely no point in even trying to discuss anything with you because you don't engage.
Truly happy for you that your faith warms your cockles and all that. But you don't half talk some nonsense.

.... and organised religion that persecuted the early church

Not nearly to the extent portrayed in popular fiction, but leaving that aside, then the slightly later church, once it had got organised and had the backing of the Roman Emperors, persecuted most of the range religions which had until then rubbed along peaceably enough into extinction.
The Christian church persistently persecuted the Jews over the centuries.

Digita

your premise seems to be that the potential that a god or gods have special insight should act as incentive for people to be their best selves. I think the exact opposite is true. If we start with the premise that premise, humans will never be their best. Our goal should be to learn and grow as individuals and as a species. The capacity for any insight exists within the collective us. If we provide the right stepping stones are descendants can answer the questions that we can not. Belief in gods makes us complacent.

There is nothing wrong with Jesus and the New Testament. It's the way in which the authoritarian and corrupt have misused the teachings of the New Testament (and other religious texts). Thus 'Love your enemy' becomes 'Burn the heretics'; 'Kill the natives'; 'Blow up the Protestants/Catholics of Northern Ireland'. A Gospel that says absolutely nothing about homosexuality but does suggest that those who reject immigrants may be in danger of Hell ('I was a stranger and you took me not in - depart, ye cursed') becomes a manifesto for far-right xenophobes and homophobes. A warning to the rich about their difficulties in entering the Kingdom of Heaven becomes greedy televangelism.

There is also nothing wrong (except impracticality) with the abstract principles of communism: with the view that all should be equally helped and protected and 'from each according to his ability; to each according to his needs'. There is a great deal wrong with the ways in which the authoritarian and corrupt have used these in the cause of oppressive dictatorship; of violence and warmongering; of extremely unequal societies where the leaders live in luxury while most people struggle at best, starve at worst.

I have always thought that the Christian Right and Communism have more in common than their representatives would like to admit: in both cases, ideologies that advocate humaneness and peace and respect for all are turned into the opposite by greedy and oppressive leaders.

The moral is perhaps that in general the people who want power are the last people who should have it; and that having an ideology that they can use to justify their power and reject 'heretics'/ 'dissidents' is likely to make them even worse. And that both gods and strong nontheistic ideologies should be kept as distant from political power as petrol should from fire.

@ddl1 👏

I have always thought that the Christian Right and Communism have more in common than their representatives would like to admit: in both cases, ideologies that advocate humaneness and peace and respect for all are turned into the opposite by greedy and oppressive leaders.

exactly my position too.

So you are being disingenuous by not answering my post. It’s impossible to argue with you

It’s interesting when we get to talk about Jesus Christ people accuse me of being disingenuous. That’s why they crucified him

You obviously haven’t read any history

And just to say no-one is defending the abuses propagated by organised so-called religion. When did I say that?

Considering religion is all about control and so many of the world ills are directly related to one religion or another the sooner it leaves society the better.

and on a personal note the more involved in organised religion people are the more two faced and evil they seem to be.

i think the world would be a much better place without any religion or god.

You obviously haven’t read any history

Oh, but I have.
You do of course need to bear in mind that history is written by the victors, which has led to an account written by the Christians who 'won'.

It’s interesting when we get to talk about Jesus Christ people accuse me of being disingenuous. That’s why they crucified him

yes, @Malie you are so right and all us ungodly heathens are wrong. I can't roll my eyes any further back in my head.

Have you tried not talking about Jesus to people who don't want to hear it? Or answering questions about where in the bible it gives instructions to persecute (to painful death in the past, and even now) groups of people - including and especially women? (i focus on the women because i am one. Gays, jews etc also have been hugely harmed by "Christianity")

Why you think the law about not murdering people is only there because it's in the bible? Before the bible people didn't tend to tolerate murderers in their family/social groups either.

Since a number of people have used the word "disingenuous" (maybe only 2?) on here, but you may have heard it outside of here, maybe a bit of self-reflection might be in order?

@somewhereovertherain
"Considering religion is all about control and so many of the world ills are directly related to one religion or another the sooner it leaves society the better."

To conflate "so many of the worlds' ills" to religion is disingenuous.

The follow events had nothing to do with religion:-

The Holocaust – between 4 and 17 million deaths (racial motivation)
Holodomor and Soviet famine – between 2.5 and 8 million deaths (political motivation)
Nigerian Civil War – 1 to 3 million deaths (ethnic motivation)
Cambodian Genocide – 1 to 3 million deaths (Communist ideological motivation)
Rwandan genocide of 1994 – 500k to 1 million deaths (ethnic motivation)
Expulsion of Germans after WW2 – 500k to 3 million deaths (ethnic motivation)
Zunghar Genocide – 480 to 600 thousand deaths (ethnic motivation)
Circassian Genocide – 400k to 1.5 million deaths (political and ethnic motivation)
Decossackisation – 300 to 500 thousand deaths (political and ethnic motivation)
Utashe Genocide (aka The Holocaust in Croatia) – 270 to 655 thousand deaths (racial motivation)
Darfur Conflict – 178 to 400 thousand deaths (ethnic motivation).

I've always thought my lack of faith gives me a huge amount of peace and certainty.

I'm content to know I'm here because our planet occupies the sweet spot just far enough away from the sun.

So I'm not looking for any greater meaning than that. I'm not searching for anything and am content to know that when I'm gone I'm gone.

So I try to live a decent life, I've never hurt anyone and have a sense of social justice.

I do love a good hymn though 😂

The idea that we need some figure to keep us all in check is so ridiculous.

But if that's all it was, as I've said before I'd happily shut up and allow believers to get on with it.

I mean the taliban are big god worshippers. Seems to be working out great for Afganistan.

@AhNowTed

"The idea that we need some figure to keep us all in check is so ridiculous."

Yes it is.

Who do you think promulgates that idea?

I think the spiritual aspect is important for a society and does hold it together through shared belief. Even the most remote tribes have their own gods/goddesses and rituals.

I think we have lost a degree of social cohesion as our belief system has died back or been diluted by so many varieties of faith and religion. It's a shame we can't keep the good parts of religions rather than war making parts, the fighting and arguing seem to take over the nicer side so that people turn away from all of them altogether.

And just to say no-one is defending the abuses propagated by organised so-called religion. When did I say that?

@Malie your relentless focus on the persecution of Christians by other faiths suggested you were fully ignoring the plank in your own eye.

I have many issues with the New Testament, most particularly the writings of Paul, who was clearly a misogynist and whose writings have been used to oppress women. But Jesus was a pretty good bloke by all accounts.

As to what @ErrolTheDragon said and your response to it, that was pretty damn awful. The persecution of the Jews by Christians is very well documented.