To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

[Digita]

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

Whenever I hear people arguing why faith in any sort of higher being is 'stupid' or 'delusional' I wonder if they've thought through the wider implications of a godless society. It might not be all that it's cracked up to be... the idea of higher beings might be invented but invented for a reason too. Is there a need for a philosophical concept of something more for accountability, law and order?

“Society needs reasons for people to tell the truth even when it is to their disadvantage.” Why swear on a Bible? The Courts have kept swearing an oath on religious texts because there’s still a psychological, moral force behind it.

"Co-operation is a key component in human interaction and also, according to new research from the University of British Columbia, the spread of civilisation. Not because for any altruistic reason, though; instead it might be directly down to a fear of a vengeful god." Fear of punitive gods linked to rise of human civilisation’

‘A new study published in the journal, Nature, tests the theory that communities are fair and cooperate with outsiders because of the fear of divine retribution.’ ‘Moralistic gods, supernatural punishment and the expansion of human sociality’

Be wary of what studies actually claim.

Participants reported adherence to a wide array of world religious traditions including Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism, as well as notably diverse local traditions, including animism and ancestor worship.

Our results support the hypothesis that beliefs in moralistic, punitive and knowing gods increase impartial behaviour towards distant co-religionists, and therefore can contribute to the expansion of prosociality.

Note that the study covered communities that had a form of faith, and that the results did not relate to faith but the belief that they may be judged on morality ….. they may have been worried about punishment from god or from the spirit of great great great granny

The important factor is the community morals.

I'm not keen on ideologically pure communist regimes any more than I am keen on ideologically pure capitalist regimes. Extremes don't work, human nature gets in the way. There has to be bodging and compromise. Marxism has never actually been practiced in the way Marx would have wanted to see it, because it isn't possible to achieve; people are too selfish, stupid and greedy for it ever to work.

Buthey, let's not stand in the way of a lazy trope.

Learn some history. Stalin was an atheist who closed and destroyed churches and killed thousands f Christians for their faith. Hitler was not a Christian - from his writings his next target after the Jews was the churches. Marxism is essentially atheistic as has been said.

The folk who stole their land were not Christians.

pretty much snort-laughing coffee up my nose reading this. But at least it means i can ignore pretty much everything else you've said as utter piffle.

Stalin's version of communism (pretty much every world leader who has said they are applying communism) is so different from a lot of the things Marx actually wrote about that it is actually an absolutely brilliant comparison to, say, what the bible actually says and what Christians, over the years, have convinced themselves (and others) it says.

Marx was right about religion being the opiate of the masses though, wasn't he? Because how else do you explain people blthely ignoring atrocities done in the name of, say, Christianity? Like they're stoned on "the word of god" or something.

Actual honest to goodness socialism, as we see in many countries in many different ways (the NHS as it used to be), how society is set up in places like Finland etc, is pretty much Utilitarianism - things are done for the greater good because if we elevate one, we elevate all and all that.

In fact, utilitarianism is about the closest thing to religion that i could get behind.

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

YANBU OP. I feel sorry for people who have nothing to fall back on when the going gets tough in life

Marxism is the opiate of the Socialists. Of those who fantasise about the new world which will never come. About the idiotic nonsense which has been tried all over the world and which has failed every time and wrecked societies wherever it has gone. Particularly pernicious to champagne socialists who tried on the masses while they sit in their glasshouses.

Well, I have heard atheists say life and making the most of it is even more important to them without a faith, because this is it - it's all they have. Better make the best job of it.

Thankfully it’s Faith that makes life worth living

It's probably too simplistic to say Hitler was or wasn't 'a Christian'. There were certainly points when he said he was. Otoh he wasn't an atheist - that's pretty clear . I think there's quite a lot of evidence he'd have supported the title of this thread, with the 'idea of god' being whatever served his ends.

Thankfully it’s Faith that makes life worth living

Maybe it's what makes your life living - well, fine. I lost my faith and it turned out there was no diminution at all in what made mine worth living.

I’m quite fond of holidays and cats. Each to their own though.

I can’t say I’ve ever felt the lack of religion in my own self, or felt the need to look for god or greater meaning. You can’t fill a hole that’s not there.

Thankfully it’s Faith that makes life worth living

For you maybe, and that's great if your faith makes you feel that. I don't have faith in any God or religion and yet my life is absolutely worth living.

I’m an atheist - I don’t cause anybody any harm because I’m a fairly good person / humanity. Not because an entity tells me to or because I think I will be rewarded in the afterlife or whatever.

Which, in retrospect, surely makes me a better person because I’m not being a decent person for selfish gain?

Also, religion has probably caused more bloodshed and war than in anything else in history.

Whether you believe there is a God, or not, regardless of if you consider yourself as a person of faith, I would hope you would have certain standards of behaviour, which those of faith and others call morals. Without them it is more often women and children who suffer the most.

@Malie, you can't speak for other people. For you, faith is what makes life worth living. For other people, it's other things. You don't live in my head (for which I am profoundly grateful) so you don't know what makes my life worth living. (Cats are on that list though).

Thankfully it’s Faith that makes life worth living

that is lovely for you and I'm happy that it gives you pleasure.

Stalin (as others did) used Marxism because it was what looked like the opposite of the oppression of the Tsars. We know how that worked out. But that's like saying he was a Marxist in the same way Charles Manson was a religious leader (was that Christianity?) or those numbskulls in Texas, or any number of those suicide cults. Ie: NOT AT ALL

Hitler - more problematic. Austria tends to the Catholic and like the pp who grew up in Ireland said, it pervades all aspects of your life when you grow up in a catholic country (I don't think Austria now or then compares to Ireland in this respect though, but it does play a large part of their lives now as it did then). As other dictators do and did, he used what he could to persuade people to do what he wanted. And if that was saying he was a Christian, or putting the fear of god in them via the SS or finding a scapegoat for them all to focus their anger on (pick one, Jews, the disabled, gays, communists etc) that is what he did. And there are similarities in the way people went for what he was offering, like a cult, with religions.

So i suppose what the really interesting question is: what is it about people that makes them think they need a cult-like thing in their lives? (some science nerds are like this about some aspects of science too - so it is probably something in the human psyche that makes these things popular)

'So i suppose what the really interesting question is: what is it about people that makes them think they need a cult-like thing in their lives? (some science nerds are like this about some aspects of science too - so it is probably something in the human psyche that makes these things popular.'

I wonder if it's a way to displace anxiety about both the random nature of life and our own powerlessness. Or that many live under systems of inequality and the suffering is only bearable with some sort of hope, or what @Malie calls faith.

Which, in retrospect, surely makes me a better person because I’m not being a decent person for selfish gain?

this also brings us back to religious charities: why do they do what they do? Some religious charities insist that recepients of their munificence convert or adhere to the tenets of that religion. I'm thinking of organisations like World Vision, the Christmas Shoebox thing and the Salvation Army type of things. And then there are others, the Sikhs and their (sorry, i simply cannot spell the word) and their places offering food to all comers, no strings attached.

Are these things offered so that the people performing the acts of charity get their reward in the kingdom of heaven (i have zero knowledge of Sikh religion, so i have no idea if the idea of heaven, or even god exists for them. I am not intending to insult anyone here) And yes, the work these people do is mostly useful and needed and i am thankful that people take the time to do it.

But is any action ever truly altruistic? Because if you give a bun to a starving person and that makes you feel in any way satisfied - who did you do it for? the starving person (for sure, i hope) or you (it is not a bad thing to do a good deed and be pleased about it). But we don't need religion to be altruistic or work for charity.

Very simplistic to believe he was. I don’t think exactly his actions reflected the teachings of Jesus Christ

I’m always amused by the way you people go to great lengths to excuse Narx. Almost like a cult. Of course Lenin wasn’t a murderer either I suppose?

I’m always amused by the way you people go to great lengths to excuse dear old KM. Almost like a cult. Of course Lenin wasn’t a murderer either I suppose? Or all those others?

But is any action ever truly altruistic? Because if you give a bun to a starving person and that makes you feel in any way satisfied - who did you do it for? the starving person (for sure, i hope) or you (it is not a bad thing to do a good deed and be pleased about it). But we don't need religion to be altruistic or work for charity.

You could say this very same thing about phoney champagne socialist do-gooders, virtue signallers, etc. You don't have to be religious to behave in this way.

When I have been at my lowest ebb I have placed my burden on a higher power and it worked. No sky fairies.

@Malie we get it, you hate Marx. You hate communism. You can stop beating the horse, it's dead.

Nobody is excusing anyone though. We are pointing out that people will use whatever excuse suits them to wield power, to oppress and to abuse if they are so inclined. That includes dicatorial regimes of all kinds - the communist ones, certainly, but also the juntas in Latin America, the dictatorships on the African continent. It also includes large religious organisations. We're still finding the bodies of indigenous children in the grounds of religiously founded orphanages in North America and I doubt that all the child victims of the Magdalene Laundries in Ireland have been found yet. Will you admit that organised religion has also been a force for evil?

Holidays & Cats 👏

**Although one could argue that cats are gods so..........