Re children in restaurant

[Arbesque]

Four of us booked a table in an expensive restaurant last night for 7.30.
About 10 minutes after we'd sat down a couple came in pushing a buggy and with 2 other children in tow. They were seated at the table beside us.
One child kept bashing his spoon off the table, another kept crawling along the wide windowsill so that he was right behind my head, and the baby was kept amused by the father playing peek a boo while she screamed excitedly. This went on and on.

We asked to be moved to another table. There were none available.Then the baby started crying loudly and the toddler got tired and cranky and joined the wailing.

We left without dessert and complained on the way out. They knocked the price of a bottle of wine off our bill.

AIBU to think expensive restaurants, charging a fortune, should have a policy for dealing with situations like this?

We paid a lot of money for a meal we couldn't enjoy.

Took dc out regularly from when they were babies in prams. It was 2nd nature to them to sit in their seat. I would have colouring books and little games to play with or I would talk to them and have a conversation.

This. Dc2 was 2 days old when she first entered a restaurant. I have notebooks, pencils etc and stickers in my bag plus the odd quiet toy. They are now 4 and 7, eat in restaurants regularly and behave. Can't always say the same at the kitchen table but we accept some feralness at home.

They get in the way?
The child was climbing near enough to someone else's table to be a nuisance.
They learn as they go?
But they weren't learning because they were just left to their own devices

Ok, what about noisy adults? We are all so quick in judging parents and noisy kids but believe me, drunk (ok, even not drunk but noisy, obnoxious and entitled) adults in a restaurant are not enjoyable either.

I complain about them too, if they are being too loud and, say, knocking into my table. Why wouldn't i?

Sounds annoying BUT how on earth was it the restaurant's fault???

@ComtesseDeSpair , that amused me. When living abroad among non Brit, largely Med-country origin neighbours, I was regularly told what I ‘must’ or mustn’t do with dds - everything from potty training to how to dress them, take them swimming - (They’ll catch cold!) - you name it - even looking at picture books with a baby - ‘Too young!’
We Brits were seen as utterly clueless about everything.

Sounds annoying BUT how on earth was it the restaurant's fault???

for not asking them to keep their children under control?

Awww it's just luck of the draw really, isn't it?! I don't mind kids being unruly but I just look at the parents sweating and think thank frig my kids are well
Past that stage.

It’s the mischaracterisation that’s particularly annoying, as if one or two weeks a year in a tourist spot makes someone on expert on ‘European’ culture (as if there’s just one!). Of course the waitstaff are smiling and fawning, they have to! The restaurants rely on the tourists to frequent them, because usually the locals don’t. Of course they’re ignoring the terrible behaviour, but yes, whilst some posters here are waxing lyrical about the culture, British children have a reputation for being badly behaved, and the parents lax.

Another part of these Mediterranean cultures outside of tourists areas that is being overlooked is that a stranger won’t think twice about scolding your child if you won’t. They won’t think twice about lecturing you about your parenting either. Children are welcomed as part of society and expected to integrate and behave, they’re not treated like separate entities that can just be left to it like wild animals. If children are taught how to behave in relation to the environment they’re in, they’re welcomed. If they are left to behave as they want to, you end up with a society that becomes increasingly hostile to children being in public spaces. It’s all interconnected.

How do you think you get the loud adults that have no consideration for other diners? They’re the same ones that were never taught as children how to conduct themselves! Children don’t just magically acquire these skills at a certain age, they’re consistently taught them from childhood.

Yes obviously. Bad behaviour from adults and children alike is not wanted. A little respect for the people around us goes a long way. That includes not screaming, shouting, rudeness or clambering around behind other peoples seats. The rules apply to adults and their children.

Lifelong waitress here.
You paid for a table and a meal, they paid for a table and a meal. The kid shouldn't have been on the windowsill. The staff should have intervened. Other than that, they have as much right to be there as you do.
Maybe next time find a restaurant with a no kids rule.

This is the first such thread I've started.

There's a happy medium between the "children should be seen and not heard" attitude and the idea that families with small children should be able to go wherever they like and do whatever they like whilst everyone else grins and bears it isn't there?
There are some venues and times that are more suitable for young children than others. We have eaten out with our children in a wide variety of places since they were very little, but we picked our times and places and if need be, took them outside if they were getting a bit fractious.
I completely agree that children need to learn how to behave in social settings and that the rest of society does have to have some tolerance, but they don't magically learn by just being taken to places, the parents actually have to do some teaching, and I don't think letting a child climb over furniture and bother other people is acceptable anywhere. You start off by modelling and expecting appropriate mealtime behaviour in your own home, then in less formal cafes and restaurants and when the children are older and have a better understanding you can go to more upmarket places for evening meals. But wherever you are, parents need to parent!
And yes, the attitude is rather different in Southern Europe, but then as others have said, there is often a bit of a different feel about dining anyway. But that doesn't mean bad behaviour is acceptable. We're an Anglo-Spanish family and there is absolutely no way our Spanish family members would accept the kind of behaviour the OP describes. The baby shrieking is one thing, in a family orientated venue anyway, but the boy crawling on the window ledge would get short shrift for sure. If anything, I'd say harsher discipline is more accepted in Spain than the UK - from what I have seen anyway, though obviously I accept I can't speak for the entire country. I would also say that in my experience at least, it is more acceptable for other people to intervene if children are misbehaving. And there definitely are formal restaurants in Spain that are not particularly child friendly, or at least where extremely high behaviour standards are expected from any children who are there. It is different, but not a free for all.

We are not living in Spain or Italy. Our children's bedtimes tend to be around 7 - 7.30pm. So taking tired young children who need loud entertaining out to an expensive restaurant at that time is a bit daft.

I'm all for children being taken out to restaurants but start with lunch and move up to dinner when they're older and can stay awake and behave

They should have stepped in for the crawling along the window sill etc - absolutely.

But what about the crying, wailing, peek a boo - what should the restaurant have said about that??

Oh yes, they should be asked to leave as well. And guess what, those badly behaved unparented children are going to grow up and potentially continue to behave badly as adults…

The old “they do it in Europe” line actually no they bloody well don’t. If a child was to squeal at the dinner table in Italy they’d get a smack around the earhole. No spoon banging either.

Ironically, to the extent that the British are intolerant, it's a direct result of the individualistic 'my kids do what they like, fuck everyone else' culture here. It'd be great for all to be able to mix together in one space as a society. What prevents that isn't British people being unwilling to look fondly on at the Arlos of this world as they operate according to those individualistic standards, but Arlos' parents for not doing some work at home to establish and practice the general standard of behaviour that society accepts.

YANBU

I expect children and babies shrieking/crying/shouting/getting up and about etc if I go to TGI’s, harvester, MacDonalds and so on. Not at dinner at a nice expensive restaurant though. I’d be posses off too:

The usual apologists are out in force! A restaurant should have the right to refuse reservations for under 12s after a certain time, say 8pm, then everyone can be happy, the family group can be as noisy as they think is their right and the adult parties can eat in peace.
I was indeed a child once you know but I was brought up to be respectful of others and would never have been allowed to be a brat and remain in the restaurant.

Fuck this - if I get a VERY rare night out without kids I am no way sitting near other families with kids. Completely ruins the whole experience. Expensive or not, behaving or not. I do not want to be near other kids and would consider dining late to avoid it or asking for a side room / booth.

Restaurants are often between an rock and a hard place, they were trying to placate unhappy customers even though it wasn't the restaurant's fault. I have been in restaurants where parents have been asked to keep their sprogs at the table 'for their own safety' and have been given a foul mouthful from the lazy breeders.

This... In spades. Its the old 'children are to be seen but not heard' and actually only seen in certain environments.

Woeful attitude to children.

Totally agree with you, OP. And so do nearly 75% of voters here, I see.

Seems to me there's a time and a place for the sort of pantomime you had to endure and I would say it's around 5.00 pm in a more informal family-friendly restaurant.

Gosh, the years we went without posh evening meals out, out of consideration for other diners...but apparently now anything goes, and stuff other people!

It's only a few years of sacrifice, for goodness' sake.