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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I really liked my neighbour until she said this

577 replies

neighbourhoodwatch · 18/08/2022 23:00

I've recently moved to a new area and was talking to my neighbour, who I really like.

Somehow the conversation went to GPs and how you can never get appointments and basically have to beg to be seen nowadays.

She was saying how it didn't used for be that way... before...

She then went on to say that it's because of all the immigrants that have come into this country and how our country is too small to hold all these people.

She also talked about the illegals coming in on boats etc and how terrible it is.

I am immigrant. I didn't come on a boat and I have a good job etc. But essentially I came to this country. I've never claimed benefits or anything like that. I'm on a high salary etc and studied here etc etc. So, I'm well established. Essentially whenever people say stuff like that, alarm bells start ringing for me.

Am I seeing it too black and white ? It's just difficult when someone says stuff like this to someone who also came here..... as an immigrant...

OP posts:
CurlyhairedAssassin · 19/08/2022 03:14

well did she mean we are overpopulated and is worried about population growth on the small island nation we are? (As am I - there’s only the Netherlands I think that’s more densely populated than us in Europe, discounting Monaco). We’ve just come back from touring round California. God the space! modern cities like San Diego built on the grid system (unlike here where our cities have grown from small places designed for horse and cart), they function so much better, traffic wise. No snarl ups. And The freeways. No chance of expanding our motorways here to be similar. Or modernising our tube and rail system. Our infrastructure is old really, it’s not meant for the number of people living here. We won’t be able to function in a few years if the population just keeps growing and growing. We haven’t got the space to build the housing we need, or the roads, without turning our island into a giant sprawling metropolis over the next few hundred years.

or do her comments means simply that she is racist?

hard to know.

ThePumpkinPatch · 19/08/2022 03:16

Livelovebehappy · 19/08/2022 00:15

She’s been clumsy in how she’s worded it, but it’s true that our country is way over populated, impacting on housing, schools and the NHS. Can’t see what’s wrong with stating the obvious……

THIS. I don't agree with showing hate or resentment towards immigrants of any kind. My issue is with government. Don't hate the players, hate the game!

Besides, our over-population issues are down to much more than just immigration.

MrsTerryPratchett · 19/08/2022 03:26

CurlyhairedAssassin · 19/08/2022 03:14

well did she mean we are overpopulated and is worried about population growth on the small island nation we are? (As am I - there’s only the Netherlands I think that’s more densely populated than us in Europe, discounting Monaco). We’ve just come back from touring round California. God the space! modern cities like San Diego built on the grid system (unlike here where our cities have grown from small places designed for horse and cart), they function so much better, traffic wise. No snarl ups. And The freeways. No chance of expanding our motorways here to be similar. Or modernising our tube and rail system. Our infrastructure is old really, it’s not meant for the number of people living here. We won’t be able to function in a few years if the population just keeps growing and growing. We haven’t got the space to build the housing we need, or the roads, without turning our island into a giant sprawling metropolis over the next few hundred years.

or do her comments means simply that she is racist?

hard to know.

Nope. Belgium, Monaco, Netherlands, Malta, that's not counting places like the Vatican etc.

Not the densest. Well, population-wise.

CurlyhairedAssassin · 19/08/2022 03:27

Besides, our over-population issues are down to much more than just immigration.

what makes you say that? People are living longer, is that what you mean? Same in other Western countries but they’ve not become overpopulated like us. Our birth rate is dropping and still our population is increasing. So where are the extra people magically coming from?

CurlyhairedAssassin · 19/08/2022 03:37

Oh sorry I missed Belgium, yeah. I mentioned Netherlands. I don’t include Monaco as it’s a principality I think. Certainly only city sized, like other places such as Vatican City. I visited there (Monaco)lots of times between the 1985 and 95. Its pop density has exploded since then and we all know that’s because of its tax haven status. I would hate to visit now, all those high rises built so close to each other. Not the place it once was…

Bpdqueen · 19/08/2022 03:39

Yanbu don't fall out with her as its not worth it with neighbours and I wouldn't try to educate her as its often a generational thing just say morning when you see her and leave it at that

elkiedee · 19/08/2022 03:40

Dotell · 19/08/2022 01:39

I never get the "what would the UK do without all the immigrant?" nonsense. What they they do before? Most people are not against immigration. I think sensible checks and restrictions are desperately needed.

I don't get this notion of "before". Before the NHS, life expectancy was lower, and far more women and babies died in childbirth. I'm not sure that DS2 and I would have survived his rather too dramatic birth (crash caesarian during a blizzard, huge blood transfusion because I was very anaemic, oh and an amazing Irish midwifery manager and the taxi driver from the mountains of Turkey who took us to hospital in the snow). You really want to go back there? Sadly you might get your way, and if you do, it will be more difficult to see a GP or get medical treatment. For you, me and everyone on this thread and our family, friends and neighbours. Whoever we are, whatever we think.

We didn't have a National Health Service "before" immigration. "Immigrants" were a key part of the founding and development of the NHS after WW2. Nurses, hospital doctors, GPs and everyone else working in the NHS have come here from all over the world.

My mum's parents were immigrants, as were many of their parents and grandparents (DGF and DGM born in New Zealand, their dads were born in Ireland, as were their grandmothers). My dad's second wife is an immigrant from China, and my sister and brother both work in the NHS - my sister is a consultant paediatrician in emergency medicine. From name and appearance she would just be assumed to be English and not an immigrant's daughter, although years ago a Czech guy did ask a question about her "Jewish" first name - I just said no, not Jewish, thought that if he doesn't realise the popularity of my sister's quite common Biblical name in the 1970s in the UK, he's not going to understand that her mum is Chinese (with an Irish English name!)

RadioRouge · 19/08/2022 03:42

YANBU.
Nobody nice or logical holds those views.
You wouldn't have anything in common.

MrsTerryPratchett · 19/08/2022 03:47

I never get the "what would the UK do without all the immigrant?" nonsense. What they they do before? Most people are not against immigration. I think sensible checks and restrictions are desperately needed.

Before immigration... vimeo.com/437542256

Allthestarsabovemyhead · 19/08/2022 04:57

@Dotell

They had to get people from countries such as India to immigrate to the uk in the 50s/60s due to gp shortages and labourers. Even now they’re having to get labourers from abroad to pick out fruit because English people don’t want to do those jobs.

Imnotanumber · 19/08/2022 05:06

Nobody is all good or all bad. There's a frightening attitude on this thread that says that people should be written off and othered because because they don't share an opinion.

I think the neighbour's view that immigration is bad probably stems from being wary of "brown people", which is nasty. But she might think the OP is unacceptable because they drive a big car in the face of climate change, or eat meat regardless of animal suffering, or have a large family in spite of overcrowding. There are probably infinite ways that two people's views could differ.

It's wiser to find a way to get along with people and accept their flaws. The alternative is a move towards a clannish, suspicious society, viewing all difference as bad. That's not the society I want to live in.

loislovesstewie · 19/08/2022 05:13

My current GP is Italian, the ones before that was Dutch, before that Polish, before that Dutch, before that British, before that Italian, before that Indian . Perhaps she needs to consider that the HNS is run by immigrants who actually look after us. Oh, and my dentist was Polish too.

JassyRadlett · 19/08/2022 05:22

loislovesstewie · 19/08/2022 05:13

My current GP is Italian, the ones before that was Dutch, before that Polish, before that Dutch, before that British, before that Italian, before that Indian . Perhaps she needs to consider that the HNS is run by immigrants who actually look after us. Oh, and my dentist was Polish too.

Bloody immigrants, coming over here with their skills and creating functioning healthcare infrastructure.

DysonSphere · 19/08/2022 05:29

I personally wouldn't take offence. I'm black and some people, especially the older generation aren't PC, they will still refer to brown people as coloured etc. I try to seek things I have in common and have a fairly robust threshold for offence and writing people off. It has always paid off.

I also think that just because someone voted Brexit doesn't automatically make them a racist🙄 I think that's equally as lazy as someone blaming immigrants for everything and I thought we'd got past that nonsense and acknowledged that there were a lot of factors that influenced peoples' vote. Actually calling people racist for raising issues about immigration leads to people listening to people with more extreme viewpoints.

I do think there needs to be an acknowledgement of how immigration legal or otherwise, has rapidly changed some areas, not all positive and for white indigenous people born here decades ago, the areas they grew up in might feel taken over and alien to them.

I was born and grew up in SE London the child of second wave Windrush and one day an elderly lady I used to check in on was saying she felt the local high street had changed out of all recognition. The traditional small independent grocers, stalls and specialists shops (think things like pollards) had gone, replaced with sellers of exotic foods, cosmetics, cafes etc owned by non-british people some of whom don't speak English much or only employ family members as staff and don't mix with the community or attend the local pub etc.

I was quite young at the time and thought 'how ignorant' But after a few years I thought: She's right. That's how it is from her perspective. Who am I to say otherwise? I can see myself how it has changed from Frank and Barbara running the local corner shop and post office, who you would chat and have a natter with to being replaced with a family from abroad who maybe you don't have much in common with and don't talk to English to you beyond necessity and speak in their own language around you.

Then there's schools. Is it necessarily beneficial for schools with children representing 20 different languages or more to be using/receiving extra resources to help them catch up? I'm focusing on the word beneficial, because again for some people, they may think well, everyone else is getting the help, but not the poor white school children in some deprived part of the country away from the major cities.

The NHS: There is a massive shortage of training GPs and other allied health professions. It's all good foreign doctors being fast tracked or granted visas to work within the NHS, but why has the government withdrawn or reduced bursaries over the years for university health courses to the indigenous population whilst placing emphasis on immigrants holding the NHS together? And how many white English GP's are there for a white person to go to without waiting for ages? That sounds ignorant - why do you care as long as they're qualified? - but I try to put myself in their shoes. There have been times that I as a woc have desperately wanted a black doctor because they will understand things culturally that my white doctor as competent as they are, won't quite understand in the same way, and I don't see why it's different for a White person either.

When people expressing concerns (however ignorantly) like your neighbor are not listened to and just written off with a slogan of DailyFail Reader, Brexiter, racist, and not engaged with, then they are sitting ducks for the far right who do listen and give them all the time they want.

We need to have a balanced conversation around immigration. It may be a net good, but it does have impacts that may not be wholly positive that need to be acknowledged if we are to have cohesion as a nation. We may not like those views, but you can't just dismiss them.

Purplecatshopaholic · 19/08/2022 05:33

So she’s a Tory voting, brexiteer, bigot…. Think I would avoid tbh, she is not the sort of person I would want to mix with. As she’s a neighbour, I’d keep interactions brief and friendly enough but distant.

ClumpingBambooIsALie · 19/08/2022 05:47

That kind of statement would put me off too — it doesn't come from a good place.

However… it frustrates me when local and national government doesn't anticipate the different needs of the local populace resulting from changes in the local demographic, often but not always due to movement of people. Because they don't properly prepare and plan, services struggle, and resentments build within the community.

I live somewhere where a rule change by national government meant that a large number of people, many with complex health needs, and some with a need for translation services to safely access healthcare, moved into a fairly small area within a very short time. It was entirely anticipated that the rule change would cause this to happen, but national government made the rule change with no apparent help for the areas that could be easily predicted to require extra services, and local organisations were equally slow to respond.

This meant that local health services really struggled to provide a reasonable service to either the new people or the people who had been there previously, and this was one of the things that fostered ill-will. To many local people, all they saw was their difficulty in getting appointments, and the waiting room having many people in who were visibly from this new group.

Of course, they were blaming the wrong people and not seeing the broader picture, but to be fair to them the local politician was if anything fanning the flames, and nobody official seemed to want to mention that some services were struggling through lack of preparation.

I don't, unfortunately, know much about how it was seen from the perspective of the new people who moved in — their views don't get published Hmm

PatientlyWaiting21 · 19/08/2022 05:53

I wouldn’t of liked there either, you aren’t being black and white but they are!

Carpy88999 · 19/08/2022 05:55

It's possible to be friend with people who hold opposing views to your own despite what mumsnet may tell you.

Minimochi · 19/08/2022 06:14

I had moved to the UK when I was just out of high school. I remember someone talking to me the morning after the first Brexit vote. He was so excited about the result and asked me whether I had voted. He was then rather shocked when I told him that no, I didn't actually have any vote in this since I am not a British citizen. He hadn't realised that I wasn't British.
Same with some of our neighbours. Yes, I was told that it wasn't about people like me. Obviously. But that doesn't change the fact that "people like me" are immigrants, too.
For nearly two decades, I had paid university fees, taxes, etc. same as anyone else; we had a house and a mortgage. Never been on benefits. DH is British and DS has dual nationality. The UK was my home but it suddenly felt as if "people like me" were simply unwelcome because we just come to get the benefits and live off the state.
If you want to be friends, I'd probably steer clear of those topics. Alternatively, find someone else to be friends with.

We moved back to my original country after that vote. The UK can keep their NHS and their benefits. I earn way more here, have a higher standard of living and can get a same-day GP appointment without a problem. (We didn't have any issues with that during Covid, either.) It's ridiculous to believe all immigrants move to the UK for money and healthcare reasons or that their children clog up the schools and don't speak English.

Piglet89 · 19/08/2022 06:17

@DysonSphere absolutely brilliant post.

VeryAncientMater · 19/08/2022 06:18

Your neighbour is perhaps less evolved than you. Her feelings come from ignorance and fear. Keep being friendly and kind and when you feel like it, talk about your story and help her to see that most Brtish Citizens are or were immigrants at some point. Don't 'cancel' her because of some unfortunate views!

ParsleyPesto · 19/08/2022 06:19

Crikey you don’t have to justify yourself by saying you have not been on benefits. You are as entitled to them as anyone else. The problem (pure racism) is hers, not yours.

Forgotthebins · 19/08/2022 06:20

YANBU. If you can be bothered, say “well I’m an immigrant and personally I am very glad that we have immigrants over to keep the NHS going, pick the vegetables in the fields and all that stuff.” See what she says. But if you can’t be bothered or she says “oh no, I didn’t mean you, it’s the other ones…” she is never going to be a friend however hard you try to suck it up.

Nowstrong · 19/08/2022 06:26

OP : Sounds like my sister. Posh, snob, tory. Terribly racist but will never admit it...Can't refer to people without stating their origins (except UK white) the Indian doctor, the Indian neighbor... makes me cringe.

BananaSpanner · 19/08/2022 06:38

DysonSphere · 19/08/2022 05:29

I personally wouldn't take offence. I'm black and some people, especially the older generation aren't PC, they will still refer to brown people as coloured etc. I try to seek things I have in common and have a fairly robust threshold for offence and writing people off. It has always paid off.

I also think that just because someone voted Brexit doesn't automatically make them a racist🙄 I think that's equally as lazy as someone blaming immigrants for everything and I thought we'd got past that nonsense and acknowledged that there were a lot of factors that influenced peoples' vote. Actually calling people racist for raising issues about immigration leads to people listening to people with more extreme viewpoints.

I do think there needs to be an acknowledgement of how immigration legal or otherwise, has rapidly changed some areas, not all positive and for white indigenous people born here decades ago, the areas they grew up in might feel taken over and alien to them.

I was born and grew up in SE London the child of second wave Windrush and one day an elderly lady I used to check in on was saying she felt the local high street had changed out of all recognition. The traditional small independent grocers, stalls and specialists shops (think things like pollards) had gone, replaced with sellers of exotic foods, cosmetics, cafes etc owned by non-british people some of whom don't speak English much or only employ family members as staff and don't mix with the community or attend the local pub etc.

I was quite young at the time and thought 'how ignorant' But after a few years I thought: She's right. That's how it is from her perspective. Who am I to say otherwise? I can see myself how it has changed from Frank and Barbara running the local corner shop and post office, who you would chat and have a natter with to being replaced with a family from abroad who maybe you don't have much in common with and don't talk to English to you beyond necessity and speak in their own language around you.

Then there's schools. Is it necessarily beneficial for schools with children representing 20 different languages or more to be using/receiving extra resources to help them catch up? I'm focusing on the word beneficial, because again for some people, they may think well, everyone else is getting the help, but not the poor white school children in some deprived part of the country away from the major cities.

The NHS: There is a massive shortage of training GPs and other allied health professions. It's all good foreign doctors being fast tracked or granted visas to work within the NHS, but why has the government withdrawn or reduced bursaries over the years for university health courses to the indigenous population whilst placing emphasis on immigrants holding the NHS together? And how many white English GP's are there for a white person to go to without waiting for ages? That sounds ignorant - why do you care as long as they're qualified? - but I try to put myself in their shoes. There have been times that I as a woc have desperately wanted a black doctor because they will understand things culturally that my white doctor as competent as they are, won't quite understand in the same way, and I don't see why it's different for a White person either.

When people expressing concerns (however ignorantly) like your neighbor are not listened to and just written off with a slogan of DailyFail Reader, Brexiter, racist, and not engaged with, then they are sitting ducks for the far right who do listen and give them all the time they want.

We need to have a balanced conversation around immigration. It may be a net good, but it does have impacts that may not be wholly positive that need to be acknowledged if we are to have cohesion as a nation. We may not like those views, but you can't just dismiss them.

This was a brilliant post.

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