To think Brexit has robbed us of so much?

[elzober]

A friend of mine from America recently obtained citizenship of an EU country due to family links. She's now ready to look for a job and open to anything as she doesn't have a degree but worked in the family agricultural business back home. She's fluent in English.

A few years ago I would have been able to invite her to stay with me here in the UK, help her get established and set her up to apply for one of the many jobs over here. But now I can't do any of that.

The ridiculous part is I know local businesses that are really struggling to recruit, can't find people locally and have struggled with the lack of EU workers since Brexit. Particularly in hospitality, agriculture and travel.

Why did we close the door to people who filled these vacancies and contributed to society and paid taxes?

She would have been a decent tax payer, nice member of the community but she's not allowed in.

She's probably going to Ireland now as apparently there's lots more opportunities there since we became an isolated island.

I will never forgive the Conservatives for this shambles. Don't get me started on the fact that a British passport is now worthless and we've lost our right to live in 27 countries. Madness.

All because Cameron ran an election on the promise of a referendum (not thinking he'd win a majority) because he was running scared of Farage and pressure from the right wing rags.

A government can't say they won't do a referendum because the people can't be trusted to vote the "right" way. That would go down like a lead balloon.

What should they do to take responsibility? Sackcloth and Ashes?

@saveforthat

Well, for a start the politicians involved need to acknowledge the mess we're in and then fix it.

I saw someone on the Guardian bemoaning the fact that previously when staying at their holiday home in the South of France, they could drive over the Pyrenees to enjoy Glace's in Italy without having to cross a border,

🤔

I was more referring to the posters who were active here at the time. Obviously you were busy elsewhere and rightly so.

Can I ask you, as you're Lib Dem, how do you campaign in a way that convinces people that you're not an 'also ran'? I don't mean it facetiously, I've voted Lib Dem many times. I won't vote Tory but also have no time for Labour. I have voted LD under those circumstances but it's really not fair as they're a legitimate party. I just feel that only the two main parties will ever get elected.

I keep thinking that if only people would just jump away from Tory/Labour and take a chance, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. Must be very disheartening for the Lib Dems.

Data can often be spun/manipulated to what you want it to say though. Often with big headlines to sell the data as a fact then in the small print its yada yada. We should all read the small print, that's where the truth lies.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Yes, I wasn't actually on mumsnet then , started just after then ironically after a personal trauma.

from 2015 to 2020 I lived in a Lib Dem dominated area and a lot of my friends are very much on the right of the Labour Party all the way thru to Lib Dems and to the left of the Tory party - I've always been open that I see things from both angles- I am social minded and believe in a strong and better support system but have no time for those out to fleece the system and turn into professional lazy arses . They ruin it for everyone else. Same goes for the corporate contract in exchange for Tory donation types -

The way I see it is the Lib Dems are only also rans due to our particular voting system, which is why I'm a huge supporter of bringing in proper PR. It does mean you get the odd one or two crackpots if you get more parties but in all fairness it would mean you would get a far more representative government and very few utterly nuts ideas would go through. It cannot be fair that say 15% of people vote Lib Dem and yet have around 13 MPs whereas labour had double the vote and yet have200 or so and same for the Tory's with over 300. At the moment the left of centre vote gets split but the right wing doesn't due to the Tory's adopting UKIP policies and hence ukip fading away.

We have a business that is based in UK but has a lot of international customers, individuals and wholesalers . We have also just done 20 months living in Denmark. So I do understand the issues within business and the situation within the EU. On top of this I'm originally from a midlands mining town until I was 30 so I understand the viewpoints and attitudes in towns such as this and why they have certain ways of thinking .

Where were you and the posters like you, EdBallsDay when those ridiculous bus leaflets were posted through doors?

I accept that you posted the advice above post-decision but that was after the horse had bolted. I don't mean to pick holes, I'm resigned to the awfulness of the outcome 'we' voted for, but more than pillorying, I want to know what we could do in future - before voting - to make sure that people have as much accurate information as possible.

We were shouting it from the rooftops. In. Person. Online. And on here. I posted many, many times here (under an earlier username) and was continuously insulted.

Pre-referendum day, I mean. Not afterwards.

Speaking for myself, I was out leafletting for Remain with my two young children.

@User135644 it was our MPs who voted for the EU Referendum Act 2015 by 544 to 54 in first reading and 316 to 53 on second.

That was MPs from multi parties and not just one. Had they not voted to allow the UK electorate to decide, we wouldn't be in this mess.

So, don't give me that "most MPs in parliament knew Brexit was a disaster and tried to stop it" given they greenlit a referendum that wasn't strictly necessary in the first place! 🤔

They voted for an advisory referendum. When the people on the Brexit side of it said it would not ever involve leaving the single market. I'm not sure they voted for economic suicide based on a statistically tied vote. Where's the evidence for that.

You can tell Brexit is as crooked as the people who support it by the fact that nowhere else in the universe can you get 52/48 to be a majority. Imagine if the UK was really ruled by that. What with 51% female, why the fuck are we letting da menz anywhere near power. Surely their role is to simply suck up what the will of the majority is ?

Yeah, you never really have to think hard to find the hypocrisy.

It has certainly affected employers in some sectors who just can’t get staff now.

Crikeyalmighty, thanks for posting back. That's really interesting. I'm a big supporter of proportional representation too, I think it's the only fair system and it's what we need. I deplore the Tories and watching the Boris antics (that we're even aware of) is sickening. I don't know how in-power politicians can watch their electorate suffer and not bring a halt to that, it's their absolute mandate.

EdBallsDay, fair enough - and I apologise for suggesting that you're a 'blowhard'. I can't remember seeing posts that you've mentioned but I think I was too jaded to look for them. I wish we had a pinned thread that would give posters who have the knowledge/interpretation skills, a platform to give a no-nonsense perspective. I have an interest but truthfully don't know what to believe or where to find the information. I wouldn't ask a politician; what would be the point of that?

I think that politics, for many people, is an absolute quagmire that they don't feel able to navigate/understand. I include myself in that group and we patently need to get to grips with it.

If it was a genuine advisory vote- then once terms were known and obvious - (not just one word -leave) then there should have been a second referendum based on those terms - and the withdrawal period amended to May2021 -after a vote had been held.

I still wouldn't agree one iota with a leave vote but would have less issue .

The fact there wasn't one - even though it was 4 years previous and a whole host of poppycock such as 'there's no question of leaving the single market ' had been touted by the leave campaign - says that they were totally in hoc to their donors and right wing media. It wasn't clear in the2019 election that there would effectively be no deal at all.

I know most people don't care about NI but yep brexit has created an even bigger sh*t-show here than we had before for various reasons.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe

I'm also pro a change in secondary school curriculums. I think it would be useful to have a 3 hour session a week that actually covers political systems (uk and elsewhere). Media , social media, religious ethos , sociology, careers and housing systems- basically 'life' skills. Would love to teach it actually!! My son kind of had a watered down version and it was his favourite lesson!!

I think far too many young people these days have poor general knowledge

I do think many people were asked a question and offered a vote that they didn't really full understand the implications of- not all by any means- but lots. I am always suprised at how few understood the fact that anti tax evasion specific to off shore money was due in just after they set the deadline for withdrawal agreement and why they didn't want to extend it- even with covid in there causing further issues

Yes you can apply for a visa to Study in EU if you are a UK student. It was about £200 in total plus travel costs to get to the embassy. Then you have to register with the Government and Police and Health care authorities. 2 years ago that was free. No automatic free Health care as an EU student anymore. You need to take Bank Statements to show you can survive

Students have to fund their own Visa fees. Yes, I'm cross about it. I have an Irish passport, and applied for Irish nationality for my daughter, but everything has been caught up due to Covid.

Yes it is, i did it too, well not 6 years but 4, easy really.

Anyway, you ve made that up because no matter how you cut it, the Pyrenees wont take you to Italy.

How do you think that comes across to normal people working on building sites, supermarkets, factories etc that have seen their wages and working conditions plummet due to free movement of labour?

People are still getting shite wages, this is caused by Govt and employers keeping them low, SFA to do with the EU.

Listen to any Govt minister on strikes and wages...?

Why do people believe this BS?

This is just sad. Many of my friends and even some family loved Erasmus or few weeks work abroad. All are from what would be a working class here. The grant was great help as well. It was not splashy times, but everyone loved it

Your friend coming here or not us of no great significance to the country as a whole

But collectively all the scientists who aren't coming over here, all though who have moved back home because they don't feel wanted, the funding opportunities, the research fields being closed to us, they are significant.

It started the day after the referendum result. We had candidates withdraw from interviews. We can't attract them any more and who can blame them. Fundamental and applied science comes out the worse just so David Cameron could appease his party.

Your friend coming here or not us of no great significance to the country as a whole

Jenner and Crick institutes used to have many EU scientists working for them.

You want UK to be at the forefront of medicine development? You need international scientists.

You idiots made sure that isn't happening.

I agree with you. It's just opening up old wounds.

Brexitiers never had that attitude and eventually got what they wanted, no reason not to follow their example.

The people who caused this disaster shouldn't be allowed to get away with what they have done.