To think Brexit has robbed us of so much?

[elzober]

A friend of mine from America recently obtained citizenship of an EU country due to family links. She's now ready to look for a job and open to anything as she doesn't have a degree but worked in the family agricultural business back home. She's fluent in English.

A few years ago I would have been able to invite her to stay with me here in the UK, help her get established and set her up to apply for one of the many jobs over here. But now I can't do any of that.

The ridiculous part is I know local businesses that are really struggling to recruit, can't find people locally and have struggled with the lack of EU workers since Brexit. Particularly in hospitality, agriculture and travel.

Why did we close the door to people who filled these vacancies and contributed to society and paid taxes?

She would have been a decent tax payer, nice member of the community but she's not allowed in.

She's probably going to Ireland now as apparently there's lots more opportunities there since we became an isolated island.

I will never forgive the Conservatives for this shambles. Don't get me started on the fact that a British passport is now worthless and we've lost our right to live in 27 countries. Madness.

Not to mention that despite this through years of hard work but (again, much maligned but competent civil service officials working in the EU) we had the best deal of any country in the EU.

It's So Much Worse than that. The "EU" that we left was shaped to a great extent in the way the UK wanted. Do you really think the French and Germans ever dreamed of a true single market ? Of course they didn't. That was rammed through by the UK. However, being slightly less dim (and that's all it takes) when they saw it actually worked for them, they rather liked it.

Already the "EU" we left in 2020 is moving on and even less like the EU brexiteers imagined than in 2016.

And also sadly that unlike a few decadea ago, people are now so arrogant that they are not prepared to admit that they don't know much about things outside their experience or expertise.

If my car breaks, I take it to a mechanic. If I get sick, I go to a doctor. If my pipes are leaking I call a plumber. I'd never pretend I know better than them about such things.

So why is it that an average person who has never studied economics thinks they know better than economists about the economy, rather than drawing on their skills as we do in other scenarios where we need professional advice?

I'd not ask my mechanic about my pension. Or my doctor about my car. The whole benefit of skills specialisation is (meant to be) that people listen to those with that knowledge when appropriate.

I am baffled why people have completely ignored everyone who actually knew what they were talking about on this issue.

@elzober you're unreasonable to claim a UK passport is worthless when Henley Passport Index rank us joint 6th with France, Republic of Ireland and Portugal!

Same number of countries as those, you know.

Go figure......

Agree. We were a tempering force that kept it working for us. How anybody thought it would work better for us from outside is baffling - to put it very politely.

Because rightly or wrongly everyone thinks they know what they're talking about as everyone sees things from different perspectives. Plus let's face it, even "experts" get it wrong.

Brexit it just goes on and on. Next we’ll have Truss and her NI bill, I can’t see UK/EU relations improving anytime soon. Yes OP it’s shit.

And it’s all very well saying get over it, slightly harder when you are married to someone from the EU (high rate UK taxpayer for 27 years btw) and life become more complicated.

Anyway we have opened a bank account in the EU and every time the exchange rate is a little more favourable, we move 25k across. Our dc can still study or work there if they wish and we can retire there.

My main impression from the whole thing is that a large proportion of the UK public is completely ignorant of finance, economics and international relations. And that this is one of the reasons that state education is deliberately underfunded - to keep it that way.

That's no problem as long as they don't vote in blocs. The random noise generally cancels things out.

The genius of Brexit - and subsequent political discourse - is to be able to mobilise an entire flock of people into a binary vote and then use that as a pretext to ram your agenda through the centuries-tested safeguards that grew organically to stop tyranny.

The problem is - as so oft quoted - the price of liberty is eternal vigilance

**

Because rightly or wrongly everyone thinks they know what they're talking about as everyone sees things from different perspectives. Plus let's face it, even "experts" get it wrong.

Perspectives are opinions. Policy decisions should be based on data and facts. This whole push to equate opinions (now matter how illinformed) to facts is so, so damaging and Orwellian.

Yes of course experts get things wrong sometimes. And obviously forecasting is not an exact science: it it was, we would all be rich beyond our wildest dreams. But I have never seen another issue on which so many experts agreed, before the event!! Ever. That should have given people fairly good assurance they were correct. Hence the Government attempts to disparage them, which the hard of thinking were susceptible to, sadly.

Yep.

Pre-Brexit we were told by Boris’ gang of sycophants that food prices would not rise despite getting rid of our cheap European labour thst our entire farming system relied on, and easy imports. “Project Fear” they said when people pointed out what would inevitably happen.

Now food prices in UK are in crisis but the media never mention Brexit, it’s like some weird taboo.

I’ve been trying to import a small parcel from France for weeks now. The export documentation for imports is a nightmare. Many businesses simply aren’t bothering to sell stuff in the UK anymore. Why should they, when it’s so easy just to sell to the rest of Europe?

And so prices go up and up… And my parcel
stays stuck at customs…

(And illegal immigration is massively up, because since Brexit we can’t automatically deport to France anymore.)

Thanks for nothing, Boris. What’s that? You’ve quit and gone on holiday and no one is in charge? Yeah sounds about right.

You are very lucky still to have that option. I hope you can still live out that dream, which has now been taken away from so many British people.

You are so right.

And this is so upsetting.

The tyranny is upon us and we were nowhere near vigilant enough so stop it.

My only hope is that threads like these help some people wake up. There is not much time now. Rights are fought for, for decades or centuries, and erased in an instant.

Most people in this country don't look beyond Daily Mail and newspaper headlines. That's why referendums are pointless. Sadly, our politicians are no better these days and we get the politicians we deserve. Even in 2016 though most MPs in parliament knew Brexit was a disaster and tried to stop it.

I've often felt that FPTP has led to a total disengagement with the workings of politics, including its policies - economic, social and so on. Seems to me that many think it is a waste of time to engage when the local MP will be re elected no matter what. And that includes a situation where the elected MP wins with a lower % vote than the losers combined.

Red or Blue? Rarely yellow or Green, yet a different system would liven things up, make it far more representative and might even encourage voters to become interested in the workings of Government. The current system does not encourage that one bit. It is the same system that gave the US a certain Mr. Trump also.

There is no doubt in my mind that this is how Brexit was won. And others are correct, it was a snowjob by those who stood to benefit hugely. A huge betrayal of the UK for nothing only trouble. Watch NI and the (agreed by Tories) Protocol very soon.....

@Rosewaterblossom when it comes to perspectives though - as@EdBallsDay rightly says- these are just 'opinions' and are not based on logic or fact- economics should be based on hard commercial data . A company deciding to expand or contract uses current and past sales figures, order books, cost analysis- not Jim down the warehouses perspective on what he thinks.

My great uncles perspective for instance is that far too many of us want to travel abroad, far too many of us use computers and far too many women work. His perspective is simply an opinion and is based on sod all apart from his own preferences in life.

Even the pro leave economist Patrick Mindford stated leaving EU would mean we have to accept decimating farming and fishing exports

Where were you and the posters like you, EdBallsDay when those ridiculous bus leaflets were posted through doors?

I accept that you posted the advice above post-decision but that was after the horse had bolted. I don't mean to pick holes, I'm resigned to the awfulness of the outcome 'we' voted for, but more than pillorying, I want to know what we could do in future - before voting - to make sure that people have as much accurate information as possible.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe I personally was busy campaigning as I'm a Lib Dem !! Where did you expect us to be?

DH runs a business and he says there has been ZERO benefit to Brexit. It has cost him so much more thanks to changes in imports and exports and general bureaucracy - he will be paying less tax to our own government as a result due to lower earnings and profits. And that is the case across the board.

As for me, I moved to France when I was 19 "just because" and then moved to and lived in Portugal, Spain and Italy for the next 6 years, sometimes working, sometimes not. I speak fluent French now and good Italian and learned so much. What a great opportunity that is now denied to our young people.

I live in Spain.
Now you can only move here and work if you have €500,000 to invest.

You can come on a work visa but they are only allowed to offer a Brit a place if it can't be filled by another EU citizen

You can come here on a non lucrative visa when you need to have €28,000 in your bank in the first year and double that in your second year. BUT you cannot work

So tell me how young people can now live here. It's now just for the rich

@maddy68 There is much crap written about this- the rich still have options- the rest of us very limited to some extent.

@User135644 it was our MPs who voted for the EU Referendum Act 2015 by 544 to 54 in first reading and 316 to 53 on second.

That was MPs from multi parties and not just one. Had they not voted to allow the UK electorate to decide, we wouldn't be in this mess.

So, don't give me that "most MPs in parliament knew Brexit was a disaster and tried to stop it" given they greenlit a referendum that wasn't strictly necessary in the first place! 🤔

I’ve always felt the blame lies with all MP’s that supported to have a referendum not just Cameron

very very little discussion or debate went on before in MP’s voted did they not think it was important to discuss the possible outcome how did they not know so many people were unhappy

unprofessional to say the very least not one of them has had to answer to this and they absolutely should be

The graph in your link is based on Henley Passport Index and it states we're 6th in a group with France, Republic of Ireland and Portugal.

Within this group, there is NO ranking as they all give passport holders access to the same number of countries. There is no difference!

Ranking graphic attached showing there is no ranking within each ranked group by Henley.

I believe that is just for tourism and will I assume change with the new requirement

6th in the world does not give UK citizens free access to the EU, 6th in the world Irish passport does.

It simply isn't possible for most 19 year olds to move to Europe on a whim and live for 6 years while sometimes working.

There's a massive disconnect between the two groups of people. I saw someone on the Guardian bemoaning the fact that previously when staying at their holiday home in the South of France, they could drive over the Pyrenees to enjoy Glace's in Italy without having to cross a border, and how terrible it was that they couldn't do that anymore. How do you think that comes across to normal people working on building sites, supermarkets, factories etc that have seen their wages and working conditions plummet due to free movement of labour?

You can only run a country for the benefit of the wealthiest and most educated for so long before everyone else gets sick of it.