They’re not ‘top-up’ benefits if you don’t work full-time

[Gobbledegobble]

If people do work full-time, absolutely those wages should be enough to live a decent life and not require outside support, and that requires systemic change (and higher taxation for corporations, closure of tax evasion loopholes and legislation to outlaw poverty wages). I’m a lifelong labour voter and will never vote Tory. BUT working 15, 20 hours a week and bemoaning that you ‘just’ need ‘top-up’ benefits is disingenuous. I couldn’t survive on part-time wages so I work full-time. I ‘top up’ my wages, if you will! But my own efforts. Outside of you or your children having a disability / chronic health need requiring ongoing care, if you can’t afford to live on part-time hours then you can’t afford to work part-time. My partner and I work full time and pay over £1k a month in childcare fees to enable us to do so. Having children does not mean you can’t work until they’re at school and then only school hours, as lots of people seem to think. The cost of childcare is outrageous and again needs systemic change through higher taxation on huge wealth. But it’s not a ‘top-up’ benefit (as if that’s somehow better or more moral than just plain old benefits). Sure I’ll get piled on but I fully support the welfare state and want benefits to be much more generous for when people need them, which should largely be a short-term crisis. Not until the children you chose to have are secondary school age with you being ‘topped up’ by full-time workers’ taxes until then.

Universal Badic Income. Problem solved.

It seems to me that’s one very specific strata in the income pyramid. Go much higher above that and it’s all VHNW individuals and business tax situations.

In my industry, past a certain earnings level, you’re a consultant and you invoice.

I have CCNA which has just been frowned upon . I got that while working as a tech support agent for a networking support company.

CCNA enabled me to apply for a role as a network engineer but the second I mentioned an interest in cybersecurity to the interviewers they bit my hand off.

I've been asked to complete my degree in either Network Engineering or Software Engineering (they don't care which) and work towards getting Cisco CCNP, which they are paying for. They also give me time on shift to study towards it. I already had my first year of my degree completed and was up to picking whether to go down the software route or continue with networking. I was advised they are both equally useful in the network field, although if you not already working in networking I would go down the networking route as this gives you CCNA which is the entry-level qualification required for any network security role.

Once I have Cisco CCNP I will be moved from the network team to an entry-level position in the cyber security team where I will be expected to get CCIE.

Thanks @Frequency Im not sure how much of that I understand, but I’ll pick my way through it. 🙂

To be fair. 60k is low for a cyber career. I wouldn’t say you were at the skilled end. You don’t have any responsibility to speak of at that level. It’s a minimum.

That's what I said. £60K is entry-level. It's what they will pay me once I CCNP which is a relatively easy certification to get.

Once I have that I won't be sitting watching AutoTask for 12 hours. I will be the person who the person watching AutoTask phones when/if an alarm goes off. In other words, I will be doing even less than I do for twice the money.

You want to be looking for an employer that will put her through SANS quals. They are more valuable career wise. More expensive too.

You’ve just proved her point @Whyareyouasking. More responsibility as a carer, yet paid a fraction of the salary she gets now. Crazy.

Still not exactly flying high in your career path though is it? The big money is where there talent is :)

@HinchcliffeandMurgatroyd

A degree in Network Engineering is step one. This gives you the degree and CCNA (A cisco qualification)
Step 2 is CCNP - you need to be working in a networking/security role to get this.
Step 3 is CCIE - this is expert level where you basically command your own salary (providing you have actual experience as well as the cert).

You can also go down the apprenticeship path. You can do apprenticeships in both network engineering and cyber security.

Thanks!

Indeed but they are talking CCNA - flying high they are not. They’ve deliberately chosen the lowest rung of the ladder and underplayed it. The real talent earn their money as they will have dozens of qualifications. They will be responsible for careers, livelihoods, businesses failing, catastrophic industry failure. Oh and they can be prosecuted. Those kinds of jobs don’t get filled because people leave and are head hunted elsewhere.

Bloody hell. She just said she’d changed career and is studying. What’s your point? Nobody starts a career as a CEO.

@EhUpDuck

"My household live on 3k a month, 2.2k of which is rent and childcare and so £800/month for everything else. And that’s 2 adults working full time in far above NMW jobs. Excuse me for not having sympathy for someone working 16 hours or fewer a week and with more disposable cash than me"

And this encapsulates a really serious issue which is what the OP is getting at. It's not that 'everyone on benefits is raking it in', it's the fact that the system allows for very little differential between someone working full time without top ups and someone working fewer hours with top ups.
At the end of the day, we're all human and we need to be incentivised to work. Not because work is always horrible or boring or undesirable, but because given the choice, most people would probably prefer the option of working less, having more control over how they spend their week etc. If there isn't a significant tangible advantage to working more, than people will choose to work less. It's not rocket science.

Imo the best thing any govt could do would be to introduce the Universal Wage, a policy which has seen real success in certain places. Everyone is given enough money for the basics- a roof over their head, food etc. Given that practically everyone wants more than the bare minimum, there's then a real incentive to earn - because there'll be a noticeable, tangible advantage.

I’m trying to help you. If your daughter wants to make a good career in cyber. Start looking at employers that will put her through SANS quals.

Deliberately underplaying the amount of work the some people contribute in this field will not sit well with me.

Oh stop willy waving. What’s that got to do with the subject of the thread? This is about earnings, taxation benefits policy not who is the king of the castle.

Not only that, but she appears to have entirely missed the point Frequency made about our society’s completely skewed values when it comes to those we pay most.

I am calling people out for responding to my posts. If you don’t like it move on. You’ve been the one responding to my posts not the other way around.

Oh sorry I thought we were back on the main discussion. I’ll add your thoughts to my notes. Although quite frankly DD is struggling to find a path and an apprenticeship might suit her.

This!

The issue of sustainability within our country, economy and public services does not lie with the proportion of society claiming UC to top up their wages.
The problem is the extremely wealthy that avoid taxation and owe the country hundreds of thousands of pounds which if all was paid would significantly impact funding for public services. Take Rishi Sunak's wife for example. If the top 1% of wealth was taxed more or weren't able to find financial loop holes to avoid tax and actually paid it at the current rate on their income, then this country would be in a far better position. But no the government couldn't be seen to favour the people!

Only 25% of income tax we pay contributes to welfare payments. Instead of demonising the lowest earners or unemployed, we need to look the government ministers responsible for squandering billions of pounds on systems that don't work, for example the £37bn on the original covid track and trace system. £12bn on attempting to turn all NHS systems and records electronic. Both contracts awarded to tory shareholders that were unable to meet their contractual obligations and provide a system that worked but funnily enough none of this money ever recovered! The tories are the problem not your average Joe.

All that cyber info was really helpful, thank you. I have two degrees (one at £27k a pop just in fees, the MSc I got a bursary for but obviously both took a huge hit on v limited earning power for years) so I don’t appreciate the implication people on high salaries always deserve them cos they’ve paid and studied for qualifications. So have I, I earn £43k a year and receive £2300 a month cos of pension, student loans and other deductions. £43k sounds good but £2300 is clearly easily achievable in my area with childcare contributions, which absolutely count cos 3/4 of my wage goes out immediately as rent and childcare; I’d love a contribution. Retraining seems daunting and infuriating given I AM qualified, but maybe it’s the way to go. Better careers advice for girls would be fucking invaluable.

The higher you go, the quicker you go if there is a problem. You can also be prosecuted.

You can be prosecuted as a carer or nurse, FYI. If I fucked up and fatally overdosed someone at the back-end of a 16-hour night shift, I could be charged with manslaughter.

All for NMW or a few quid more.

Both me and my husband work full time. We still get a substantial amount of help from UC. The country is fecked.

Even bar staff and shop staff are endlessly told they can be prosecuted if they miss an age check.

That’s not what I meant when I said that. They will have degrees but also multiple qualifications like SANS and others which are roughly 10k each. Not just 1 or 2 but many. 100k on degree and industry qualifications is not unheard of. They will then need to keep these in date. It’s an industry which values experience and you will always earn more the more hands on experience you have. At the end of the day people make a choice to qualify as a nurse or an engineer. One will pay more than the other, one people may find more rewarding than the other.

Doesn’t change the fact that at “higher levels” we don’t pay competitive wages in this country. Which goes full circle back to the op.