They’re not ‘top-up’ benefits if you don’t work full-time

[Gobbledegobble]

If people do work full-time, absolutely those wages should be enough to live a decent life and not require outside support, and that requires systemic change (and higher taxation for corporations, closure of tax evasion loopholes and legislation to outlaw poverty wages). I’m a lifelong labour voter and will never vote Tory. BUT working 15, 20 hours a week and bemoaning that you ‘just’ need ‘top-up’ benefits is disingenuous. I couldn’t survive on part-time wages so I work full-time. I ‘top up’ my wages, if you will! But my own efforts. Outside of you or your children having a disability / chronic health need requiring ongoing care, if you can’t afford to live on part-time hours then you can’t afford to work part-time. My partner and I work full time and pay over £1k a month in childcare fees to enable us to do so. Having children does not mean you can’t work until they’re at school and then only school hours, as lots of people seem to think. The cost of childcare is outrageous and again needs systemic change through higher taxation on huge wealth. But it’s not a ‘top-up’ benefit (as if that’s somehow better or more moral than just plain old benefits). Sure I’ll get piled on but I fully support the welfare state and want benefits to be much more generous for when people need them, which should largely be a short-term crisis. Not until the children you chose to have are secondary school age with you being ‘topped up’ by full-time workers’ taxes until then.

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Very few UC recipients have an income anywhere near £40k.

Those that receive higher amounts do so because the lions share is a childcare subsidy. A deliberate public policy to keep the low paid in the labour market.

We should arrange childcare on a massively subsidised basis as they do in on much of the continent and in Scandinavia. That would oil the economy wonderfully, increase the %age of parents working and working FT, and also stop all this infighting amongst the different economic strata of hard pressed parents.

But high earners are not a charity. They will be paying at least 40% tax on everything they earn if they are PAYE and will be working very long days

Don't be daft. It's a well-known fact that for the majority the more you earn the less you work.

I've just changed professions after studying and working my up while being a carer and a tech support agent. I'm now in network engineer earning as much from this job as I was doing 2 full-time jobs and I do fuck all.

I worked much, much, much harder as a carer. And it was much more stressful and emotionally demanding.

If I fuck up doing network engineering someone loses internet for a day or two. If I fuck up as a carer someone might die. I was handing out morphine to vulnerable adults for half the money I get for sitting and watching a massive hotel chain's network connectivity. I also work far less hours.

Actually they do (especially with children). With top ups and rent paid etc, it’s not that hard. 40k is equivalent to £2500 or even less if you’re having to contribute to a pension.

Actually they do (especially with children). With top ups and rent paid etc, it’s not that hard. 40k is equivalent to £2500 or even less if you’re having to contribute to a pension.

The benefit cap is £25k p/a.

What about key workers who work just as hard but aren't paid anything like in line with their efforts, yet the richer part of society benefit from their labour and everything would grind to a halt without them?

Got to keep your nurses and delivery guys alive, you know.

This. You’ll also find that talent in industries which are in demand will do one of two things. They will either refuse extra work at 100k because they hit the invisible 60% or they move abroad. There are severe vacancies in STEM in this country because the talent isn’t there. Not entry jobs, or assistants but the ones who require qualifications, degrees, trade professional accreditation. Not just some old CCNA or something.

To be fair, network engineers aren’t really known for doing a lot.

They will be paying at least 40% tax on everything they earn if they are PAYE and will be working very long days. Why should someone doing a really hard and stressful job subsidise people who work part-time or not at all?

Not every higher tax payer works long days in hard and stressful jobs - I didn’t. A hard, stressful job is likely to be paid minimum wage. And nobody pays 40% tax on everything they earn.

Many people with a low income also have low outgoings (for example living in low rent, secure social housing

Do you know how much social housing exists now? People on low incomes pay a far greater proportion of their income on rent and utilities than those on higher incomes.

What is the point of anyone doing well if it means they are forced to share the fruits of their hard work with everyone else? Nobody would bother.

And yet so many of us do. Because we understand the concept of a society where everyone’s needs are taken care of. And some of us are motivated by things other than money.

That is why there are so many vacancies - because benefits pay more than most minimum wage jobs

The reason there’s a benefit cap is quite specifically to ensure this isn’t the case.

There are severe vacancies in STEM in this country because the talent isn’t there. Not entry jobs, or assistants but the ones who require qualifications, degrees, trade professional accreditation

Brexit.

I spent the lockdown working in welfare advice, while my industry was mothballed. It’s relatively rare to see a claim with all the extras and maximum childcare in it. Admittedly this is a medium rent area, so could be higher and lower in other places.

We have got to a situation where lots of wages and UC is flowing straight through bank accounts to landlords, childcare providers and utilities in large amounts and people are still struggling. That’s the same for claimants and non-claimants alike.

That has a part to play but also homegrown professionals in software, cyber, technical, engineering are in demand. This country pays very poorly in comparison and there are many countries willing to quadruple “high” salaries from this country with lower tax burden.

In which case it’s global market forces and we’re fucked.

What is the point of anyone doing well if it means they are forced to share the fruits of their hard work with everyone else? Nobody would bother.

I bother.

I had a couple of years when I was too ill to work. It was horrible. Before that, I had a couple of years, freshly & unexpectedly divorced with two toddlers when I had to go PT because I couldn’t afford childcare FT. Nobody in their right mind enjoys being under occupied and counting pennies.

Being able to throw myself into my career is wonderful now. Earning the money I earn (and plotting to make more) is wonderful. I’ve been PAYE and I’ve been a business owner and I really can’t understand anyone resenting paying tax. I want to live in a country where children can all eat, where the NHS functions, where asylum seekers can be helped and the streetlights work. Why shouldn’t I pay for it?

I’m more pissed off with us subsidising the electric companies whilst share holders and managers make huge profits / salaries.

Well yes, this is what I am saying. We are such a low wage economy country it is unreal. Especially in the “tomorrow’s world” professions. Countries are willing to pay big bucks for those at the top of their careers and their talent pools. All with less tax. So a person on 6 figures here may seem to be on a high salary (they are compared to most). Globally - they won’t be.

The issue is we have subsidised wages for so long it’s not just driven down the worth of carers, bin men and cleaners. It’s made us uncompetitive in essential fields because wages are crap right across the board. It’s a huge problem which has been coming for a long time. Brexit just made it worse.

Not everyone wants to live in a low-tax, low-empathy society like the states. What worries me is we will also be losing people to high-tax, high-cohesion countries like Sweden. We really do need to pick a side and stop with this policy mish-mash.

I don’t

I think taxes are a good thing.
i want well funded schools, hospitals, police, councils and services.
make the jobs attractive to people, pay them well. In turn they use their wages to buy stuff creating more jobs, more wealth and more taxes.

Cyber security is what I am working towards. It's why I was taken on to be trained up as a cyber security analyst.

Once I have the necessary entry level qualification I will be on circa £60k p/a. That's almost 6 times what I earned when I was literally in charge of keeping people alive.

I think that's wrong.

I also earn the same per hour writing werewolf porn as I did as a carer.

Neither writing werewolf porn nor monitoring a network for security threats and applying patches were needed requires as much skill as being a carer did nor are they harder physically or mentally.

I understand it's because I'm being paid for my knowledge and talent. I just think we value the wrong kind of knowledge and talent. I think it is wrong that as a carer I am looked down upon for being "unskilled" and needing "top-ups" and not "contributing to society" whereas as sitting and watching AutoTask for 12 hours, literally, just sitting and watching it, earns me respect purely because I am no longer entitled to top up benefits even though I still would be entitled without the werewolf porn money

You’re absolutely right. Clearly high levels of taxation aren’t causing an exodus of highly paid workers from Scandinavian countries.

They don’t but those who start paying nearly 70% of their income on deductions for very little get pissed off. So the issue is they will bail to one or the other. We have a huge taxes on income in this country and an absolute appalling state of living. So they need to swing one way or the other. At the moment it just seems to be “hide low wages with top ups.” This means those who are “in demand” careers leave for a better quality of life for them and their families.There aren’t loads of “high paying” vacancies in these fields for no reason.

I keep hearing about people training in this. Without derailing too much, what’s the qualification? I wonder if I should stick the details under DD’s nose.

We have a huge taxes on income in this country

Historically that isn’t the case. Basic rate income tax was 33% when I started work.

To be fair. 60k is low for a cyber career. I wouldn’t say you were at the skilled end. You don’t have any responsibility to speak of at that level. It’s a minimum. Some people in cyber do work hard, they are paid highly because if they don’t, the institution will family, business will fail and people will lose jobs. To be fair though those higher up in these industries will have significant experience and will fully deserve their salaries. They will have degrees and professional qualifications which cost 10k a pop. The higher you go, the quicker you go if there is a problem. You can also be prosecuted.

I do think there is too much of an emphasis on taxing earnings and too little emphasis on taxing wealth in the UK. Those that are lucky enough to have owned houses over the past few years have made massive tax-free gains. I know I have earned more from house price rises than I have earned over the past 6 years. Why not try widening the tax base rather than hammering earnings again and again?