They’re not ‘top-up’ benefits if you don’t work full-time

[Gobbledegobble]

If people do work full-time, absolutely those wages should be enough to live a decent life and not require outside support, and that requires systemic change (and higher taxation for corporations, closure of tax evasion loopholes and legislation to outlaw poverty wages). I’m a lifelong labour voter and will never vote Tory. BUT working 15, 20 hours a week and bemoaning that you ‘just’ need ‘top-up’ benefits is disingenuous. I couldn’t survive on part-time wages so I work full-time. I ‘top up’ my wages, if you will! But my own efforts. Outside of you or your children having a disability / chronic health need requiring ongoing care, if you can’t afford to live on part-time hours then you can’t afford to work part-time. My partner and I work full time and pay over £1k a month in childcare fees to enable us to do so. Having children does not mean you can’t work until they’re at school and then only school hours, as lots of people seem to think. The cost of childcare is outrageous and again needs systemic change through higher taxation on huge wealth. But it’s not a ‘top-up’ benefit (as if that’s somehow better or more moral than just plain old benefits). Sure I’ll get piled on but I fully support the welfare state and want benefits to be much more generous for when people need them, which should largely be a short-term crisis. Not until the children you chose to have are secondary school age with you being ‘topped up’ by full-time workers’ taxes until then.

I agree with you. I couldn't afford to work part time, so I don't.

popcorn time

Surely the problem comes when working full time still doesn't earn enough to cover childcare though? Not everyone can just get a better job, those NMW jobs like caring, cleaning etc will always need doing. The issue is the NMW is nowhere near what it should be, but to up it would crucify many small businesses. I have no idea what the solution is but your basic premise that working full time off sets childcare in all cases is flawed.

But some jobs are only part time whether the worker wants them to be or not. I worked retail. I was always officially part- time (contracted something like 25 -30 hours a week) but would have preferred to be employed full time. But other than management no one was given a full time contract.
I never claimed any benefits btw. I have learned all these years later I probably would have been entitled to something. It never occurred to me to apply because in my mind I had a 'proper' job. I wish I had known because I think it might have made a significant difference to my life and how it turned out.

Outside of you or your children having a disability / chronic health need requiring ongoing care, if you can’t afford to live on part-time hours then you can’t afford to work part-time.

True, but you’d be surprised how many people that applies to. It’s a large slice of the population who are chronically I’ll, disabled or carers.

Then there are life situations like adoption, domestic violence , homelessness, rehabilitation or bereavement that might mean , for example, that children can’t cope with childcare on top of school, or adults are really struggling.

My own view is that 90% of people are doing their best (and that includes all the groups above), 5% are just chaotic and always will be and the final 5% are moochers, who will always exist and you cannot legislate for.

Im perfectly happy to pay taxes at a level that takes care of the 90-95%.

Key word in your OP being partner.

I see your point. I’ve always worked full time even when mine were very small.

IDK I try to be sympathetic to people if I can.

True, but you’d be surprised how many people that applies to. It’s a large slice of the population who are chronically I’ll, disabled or carers.

This is kind of what I was thinking.

plus people who can’t find full time work that pays more than the part time work that had/ have.

Absolutely this.

Those tories have got you even if you don't believe it. We keep hearing about all these wonderful unfilled jobs, but the vast majority are PT. DS was looking for work in retail or catering and nothing is offered full time. The reason he was looking was that the full time job he was doing turned out to be nothing of the sort ans his hours were regularly cut.

If you have two kids at nursery and work full time on the average wage you’d end up with £0 at the end of the month. Childcare costs are a massive problem that are not being addressed as Daily Mail readers are full of the ‘your kids, you pay for them’ attitude.

The cost of childcare is outrageous and again needs systemic change through higher taxation on huge wealth

And what does one do when the cost of full time wraparound childcare exceeds your income?

That’s true. The two occasions I’ve been forced to go PT for a while were due to firstly chronic poor health and secondly unexpected divorce, with two preschoolers. I had changed paths and my early career wage just wouldn’t cover FT childcare x 2, even taking all the available help. Deeply irritating as I wanted to stay FT. If we had a more continental approach to childcare finance, the benefit would be widespread.

I don't think they should be called benefits or credits or anything positive sounding - it should be a neutral non inflammatory name.
Plus, they aren't benefits in any real sense, more minimum standard of living.
'Income supplement'
'Additional allowance'
'Low income allowance'

Something sensible.

@Gobbledegobble

good for you OP
you also have a partner. If you’re ere on your own could you honesty absorb £1k a month child care and all the bills?

some people can’t work full time because they have nobody to collect their kids at 5.30 pm which is when our school tea club finishes here or 6pm nursery which means a 5 pm work finish and at least 45 minutes in rush hour often doesn’t work and you can’t afford a childminder.

There are so many variables. That factor above is the issue for me.

you do you as they say

How about “guarantee”, since the point is to ensure a very modest income floor?

I think you are angry at the wrong people op

If you know of any full time jobs that pay enough for a single parent to afford child care and live off whilst having few qualifications and no one to do school runs /take kids in holidays please let us all know so we can be as good as you.

Surely the problem comes when working full time still doesn't earn enough to cover childcare though

I know a lone parent, 3 kids (twins so didn't plan for a third) who can't afford to work full time because the cost of childcare is more than her wages would be & the childcare part of benefits doesn't cover it. So what is she meant to do?!

She was married to her high-ish earning ex when she had them too so could afford them at the time

I was under the impression that if you have a full time working partner you'll get pretty much nowt if you work part time? I earn £12k PT and am rightly not entitled to anything except tax-free childcare.

If you are a single parent working FT and not in a powerful position i.e. senior management it is very hard to juggle 2 kids and their illnesses without an understanding employer. My DS has been off for at least one week every 6 weeks the past year between covid, chicken pox, hospital stay, mystery virus, vomiting bugs. I am fortunate in that I am PT and DH and I can split it.

I mean yes on paper if you can’t afford part time work you should be working full time. But there are so many shades of grey in between that you really can’t judge on other people’s circumstances. Single parents, caring for elderly parents, ill health including mental health that you may be unaware of, disabilities ( which I know you do mention) lack of full time positions, childcare, partners doing shift work are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. If people qualify for benefits they qualify, get on at the people who change/make the rules instead.

I've known a few people work part time then claim benefits on top. The thing is in the long term is a very bad idea, you will be penniless when the DC grow up unless you are able to get pregnant again at 45. It's better to try build a career.

Part of the issue is the change in societies views.
People are having kids later so grand parents are also older and can't help.
Divorce is seen as acceptable regardless of the reason.
People have kids when not married and then the partner leaves mum to look after them.
One wage isn't enough to live a normal life.
People who can't afford kids I.e. stuck in minimum wage jobs still have them.
People have more than one when they can't really afford it.
Childcare is ridiculously expensive as it's now sold meeting ofsted standards hint I just want someone to babysit in the home environment like they would raise their own kids.
Sterilisation isn't easy to access

Etc etc etc

We have one child, we couldn't afford another when the age gap would have been smaller so we have stuck with one. Now we could have another it's to late for us. 32 with a 9 year old DS. We both work full time in well paid jobs, live in a cheap area.

Alternatively you do what DH and I did when our children were young.
DH worked Monday to Friday office hours and I worked Saturday and Sunday and two evenings a week. So yes I was only working 28 hours, so part time; but no childcare costs at all. Bloody hard work but we managed.

MN never ceases to amaze me with it's myopic, partisan view about benefits.