To wonder why so many women put up with this shit

[Stylishkidintheriot]

www.theguardian.com/money/2022/aug/15/how-to-achieve-an-equal-split-of-household-chores-kate-mangino#comment-158160830

I don’t get it: I really don’t. Not in this day and age.

if a man isn’t pulling his weight, why the fuck would you stay in a relationship or have children with him?

@PewterHeart you don't find people using matriarchal negatively because there aren't any matriarchal societies, and likely never have been.

It's extremely unscientific to draw conclusions about the innate behaviours of men and women based on any current civilisation. You'd have to go back at least tens of thousands of years to find a human civilisation untainted by patriarchal dominance. The closest we possibly have are modern hunter gatherer societies, and many of them are remarkably egalitarian (and child-rearing tends to be done collectively rather than in nuclear families, so let's not pretend there's anything natural about that structure).

There are very sound scientific theories about the reasons all human society is patriarchal, and they have nothing to do with cooking, cleaning, nurturing, or being a SAHM. It's much more likely to be to rooted in sexual dimorphism, and males exploiting female labour by exerting their physical dominance.

Yes agree with this. I'm happily single but was at a wedding last month and the number of people who asked why I wasn't with anyone...apparently this was more interesting than my job, my hobbies, my family....anything else about me! And sometimes it can be bloody hard being single - financially, emotionally, etc. It's interesting that research shows that single women without children are the happiest subgroup, and also live longer!

Whereas married men are happier than single men! Yet a single man isn't pitied in the same way a single, childless woman is....

The irony for posters like Topgub is that the more you lambast the SAHM model, the more you affirm that the domain of ‘child-rearing’ is effectively valueless, the more you then deter men from participating in it. It’s why childcare workers, predominantly young women, are grotesquely underpaid. Think about it: if childcare in any form is so lacking in worth, why would men do more of it? You’re sending a clear signal that this is an undesirable pursuit for women, yet somehow you want men to participate in it more? That makes no sense. People are drawn to high value activities, however valie is defined.

It stands to reason then that we get more men to participate in caring work, by enhancing its value, not diminishing it.

I read an article the other day that suggests more and more men are being "left on the shelf" (as it were) due to the fact that women are now in a position to be a lot more selective about who they partner with, and subsequently, how and when they leave the relationship when it doesn't work.

It said that men (namalt) are basically ill-equipped to provide what the modern woman requires in an equal relationship. Hopefully, over time, men (namalt) will naturally evolve to become better at providing towards a balanced, non-1950s style household. This takes time, and today's women are pretty much the last generation of women who will stand for this, as the culture of what we expect of our husbands and boyfriends is (rightly) changing.

Women on the whole do not need men. Therefore darwinism would suggest that in order to retain their species, men must evolve and the fair and decent ones will prevail.

@Lucidas

Yeah.

I habent said child rearing or childcare is worthless

You can rear children and do lots if childcare and work.

Having a sahm excludes men from doing more childcare.

So how does that help to encourage them to value it more?

Being a sahd has less negative societal impacts but I dont respect that choice much either.

It's not until the relentless drudgery of children that you realise that they're not just a bit less fussy than you.

I think a lot of men expect to look after them the way their mothers did.

Hopefully, over time, men (namalt) will naturally evolve to become better at providing towards a balanced, non-1950s style household.

and the reason this is taking soooo long to evolve is because....?

yup, men have always had a vested interest in keeping the status quo. In organisations, home life, education, every aspect of society. The only power women can exert is in relationships, deciding not to put up with misogyny.

Instead they far too often let men off the hook.

Killer quote from another thread, a woman cleaning up her partner's sick from too much drink "oh, but he's lovely when he isn't being a selfish arse" - ffs lovely???

Plenty of young men / fathers out and about round here, on the buses with children, in pushchairs and buggy's, the children mostly seem content and the fathers dont shout and rant at them, like some mothers do. So much negativity on mn about men and over intellectualising of topics. Life is hard for everyone, whether you have a willy or fanny, all this point scoring lark, does my head in.

The thing is though. Why are they so ill-equipped. It's not like some natural unchangable state, is it. Parents everywhere always beam (well not always, I am sure parents of kids setting corner shops on fore don't but you know what I mean) about how great they brought up their kids.
Yet we have over submissive women and men who can't workout a hoover.
I do think lots of it is nurture. My brother and I had to swap chores at home all the time so we did everything. While he is moody and bit pessimistic type, which is his nature, his nurture ensured he can put a wash on, deep clean, DIY, cook and does it as a baisc part of life.

I often wonder about how some of these other man grew up. I am talking man in early 30s, not some long gone by times (don't even, I like to feel young).

However, I do all the laundry (my husband literally couldn't)

Literally can't use washing machine? Why? Disabled and can't reach the washing machine buttons? Hm probably not if he's able to do all the heavy lifting..
So if he lived alone, he would use disposable paper gowns only?

I did exactly that!! I knew that I wanted a very proactive parenting partner who would help me fly in my work…

I know, it’s amazing isn’t it, that we don’t have a crisis of men post-divorce wandering the streets like unwashed zombies in filthy, tattered rags which they dragged from the bottom of the laundry basket six months ago and have been wearing ever since. Oddly enough, they seem to develop the mental capacity to load a washing machine within days.

I know, it’s amazing isn’t it, that we don’t have a crisis of men post-divorce wandering the streets like unwashed zombies in filthy, tattered rags which they dragged from the bottom of the laundry basket six months ago and have been wearing ever since.

What is even more amazing is that somehow they managed to do their laundry before marriage - as I don't think there's much demand on the market for unwashed zombies. Unless of course mummy did it for a grown man, which should be a warning sign.

Lol I exaggerated obviously he would figure it out eventually but he'd probably end up with scratchy or weirdly soft clothes for a while... probably shrink some as well (he's shrunk one of my jumpers before which is a big part of why I do it because I actually check labels lol). Good to know you're still worrying about what me and my husband do though x

Thing is, I accept that some couples want to live with “traditional” set roles. I don’t understand it, but I accept it might work for some people. But I don’t see why that has to also tandem and the broader dynamic become diluted with this weird infantilisation of men by claiming things like that they aren’t capable of using a washing machine. The things were only invented a few decades ago, so clearly humankind didn’t evolve as a species with only the female half developing the innate DNA for working a washing machine. If your husband doesn’t do laundry then just say that he doesn’t do laundry because he’s never bothered to learn because he sees it as a woman’s job and has always banked on having a woman around who will do it for him. If you’re proud of your housewife role, why pretend that he can’t rather than that he won’t?

Good to know you're still worrying about what me and my husband do though x

Sorry to disappoint, I didn't even notice who the poster was. Just that this kind of attitude is part of the reason why women accept to do the lion's share, because husbands 'literally' cannot do laundry, literally cannot see dirt, can't possibly remember family birthdays or what time their kids weekly afterschool activities are. All nature. Women have an innate ability to clean toilets.

And the usual nonsense of women thinking they're actually coaxing and persuading men into doing any of ot by showing them how valuable it is to do it all

Fucking nonsense

I can't imagine anything less sexy than a man who is more incompetent than the average 14 year old child

Unless his job doesn't involve computers, machinery or technology of any kind, and he doesn't have a phone or any gadgets then he can use a washing machine, he is choosing to do it badly to force you to do it.

You may be happy with your set up, he should be fucking happy with your set up, but I couldn't be happy with a set up with a man who didn't respect me to this extent.

Sorry this is a longer message:

In my case my husband and I met at 14, and got together at about 18. His mother (who struggles with mental illness and hates him and all other men, loves her daughters unless they kick up a fuss then she might flip and everything might be their fault) kicked him out of their extremely low income single parent home at 18 and he had to move in with me and my parents for 2 years until between us we had enough income to rent a small flat. In fact for a couple of years I earned more than he did, but it didn't take long before his drive (and my lack of it) got him better paying roles and we could move out.

We divided chores quite fairly at that time, though he did all the cooking as I had never been taught (he has since taught me) and I did most of the laundry (it didn't take long for him to shrink my favourite jumper and I took on that role lol). Then as we moved through life, he had far more ambition than me and wanted to raise himself up from the poverty he'd lived in before and break the generational cycle, so he worked really hard commuting hours on busses to work long days to progress his career, I worked a local full time job but I hated working, it made me sick... whereas he gets satisfaction out of working and succeeding.

Fast forward to age 26 and we are married and expecting, he's earning a lot (enough that I could stop working entirely this year - I'd been working part time for a few years), he works from home now and does help out with chores I specifically hate (bins, toilets, garden waste) and does the majority of the dog walking (I rarely walk her alone, it's usually we both go or just he does), and he still does a lot of cooking because as I said before he enjoys it.

I don't know if that's what you expected our lives to be like, but I don't think that we are playing into some societal sexist agenda or anything, we just figured out what works for us and we are happy. In fact, since living more traditionally it's the only time that neither of us has not had to be on some form of mental health medication (off meds for about 2 years now and no signs of going back)... I just think we have found our natural roles.

Neither of us is ever unwilling to help the other if they need it. For example I said when I get very pregnant he might need to help me with laundry (specifically carrying the full basket up and down the stairs as we live in a three storey house) but I'm still going to load, add products, supervise and press the buttons etc... and maybe I won't need the help - we won't know until it happens! But he said "yeah obviously lol that's fine"

Perhaps last night in my tiredness I misunderstood what many are really trying to say, and it's about women who are unhappy with the SAHM role and their husbands are lazy and unhelpful and ungrateful. Of course I don't condone that. I suppose I just wanted to show that some or even many SAHM and trad relationships are genuinely happy and that shouldn't be anyone else's business... and it's not very nice for people (not saying necessarily you) to make assumptions about people and the life they've led beforehand based on very little info and a few admittedly heated messages.

I apologise for my attitude before (including the other message this morning), looking back I should've handled myself with more grace and forgiveness and understanding. I hope you have a lovely day.

However, I do all the laundry (my husband literally couldn't)

Who did his laundry before you moved in together?

Cross posted with your explanation on this.

You accept the love you think you deserve.

@Almondsandraisins if you read my most recent (long) comment you might have a better understanding of our personal situation. We both have respect for each other we just have different talents and fill different roles... which just so happen to be more traditional... but I don't think that works for every relationship at all - everyone is different. It just works for us. He helps me with things I hate doing... like phone calls! We moved and we need a new dentist... no one has responded to my emails so he said he can call around for me because I cannot bear calling up places haha. Anyway hope you have a lovely day and wish you all the best. Sorry for how I handled myself in previous posts and I hope you won't hold it against me.

@3amAndImStillAwake yes sorry I didn't really explain the first time round and I realise it came across in a way that was inaccurate - I hope it all makes a tad more sense now.