To wonder why so many women put up with this shit

[Stylishkidintheriot]

www.theguardian.com/money/2022/aug/15/how-to-achieve-an-equal-split-of-household-chores-kate-mangino#comment-158160830

I don’t get it: I really don’t. Not in this day and age.

if a man isn’t pulling his weight, why the fuck would you stay in a relationship or have children with him?

@PewterHeart

Lol at the idea it's me with the narrow world view whilyou spout even more sexist nonsense.

Funnily enough I've managed to raise my children and have a career, just like their dad.

If it is just "innate" female/male differences, then it is strange that other developed countries around the world vary so much in terms of female participation in the labour force, the gender pay gap, the types of job women do etc.

There's a strong cultural element and in the UK that's massively exacerbated by our childcare and housing being so expensive. Every decision is riskier when it's so expensive to make a mistake.

I personally had no idea how sexist the UK was until I had a DC. It had never really impinged on me before.

Good for you! If that's what you want to do then go for it. I'm genuinely pleased for you and have respect for your choices and apparent success in achieving your goals.

I'm saying you have a narrow world view because you don't seem to be able to have the same admiration and respect for women who choose something different, despite if it come naturally to them and it is their preferred lifestyle.

My world view is not narrow or sexist because I accept that everyone is different, but that means that there are plenty of women, like my sister and me who would prefer to be SAHMs (regardless of ability to do so). Whereas you seem to think that any women who think that are suffering internal oppression of some sort, which is ridiculous and just radical feminist brainwashing.

men and women become even more different in an equal society, women fall naturally into more traditionally feminine roles, and men to the masculine.

Really, more female builders and male nurses in Saudi Arabia than Sweden?

@PewterHeart

You're reading an awful lot into a few short sentences.

I havent said any of the things you're saying I think.

I dont have to respect your choices and I don't care if you respect mine.

Regardless of motivation, the choice to be a sahm promotes sexist ideals like women are innately better suited to nurturing and being home makers.

So no, I don't respect it.

In many countries that are considered egalitarian icons (eg throughout Scandinavia) the women tended to fall into more feminine roles and the men to masculine. That doesn't mean that women were all SAHM, but it might mean they took more roles as teachers and nurses rather than engineers and bricklayers. And again, that's not 100% because there's always outliers. As there are many many differences between even the most developed countries it's difficult to know exactly what might be impacting choices etc... but it has been studied that when given an even choice, woman choose more "people-y" and caring roles and men choose more "thing-y" and analytical roles. I don't want to be misconstrued as believing that every woman wants to be a SAHM and every man wants to work every waking moment of the day... but there is a trend, when you equal out every other societal influence (if that's the right phrase - I'm very tired haha), in what choices they make.

It's always good to take a super extreme example of a society that bears little resemblance to any western society because of religious difference when taking about specifically secular societal impacts and outcomes...

If I've misunderstood you then I apologise... however with what you have said, I don't think I'm far off the mark. Feel free to prove me wrong - but nothing you've said makes me think that you truly believe in equality of womens choices, because you cannot even respect another woman's decision, you can only acknowledge that you can't change their mind for them... a far cry from the former

An ex moved in with me temporarily for 3/4 weeks. When he had his own place he was forever mopping floors and cleaning and proclaimed that everyone should clean up after themselves and take pride in cleanliness.
Staying at my place though, I thought his arms had been amputated, didn't do a tap.😂

I think a lot of people on mumsnet do not recognise the financial realities of life. Many women work in low paid part time roles. They have caring responsibilities. They do not have the cash to get a solicitor and get rid of someone. They may not have a supportive family who will help them financially through a separation. Therefore it will sometimes take a lot before someone puts themselves in a precarious situation. This is normal life. Why do well off people in the public eye leave their spouses and get divorced more frequently? Answer because they can.

I absolutely think it's this. I have been totally amazed by what a sexist society we live in since having a child.

With my ex, a lot of it was his total refusal/inability to credit anything he didn't do himself as even existing e.g woman/wifework was Just. Not. A. Thing. It was my imagination.

Or he claimed not to realise or notice things needed doing.

I fully admit we got off on the wrong foot with me being eager to create a lovely nest. Having come from a traditional household where my dad's learned helplessness, I just thought that was normal. I was pretty young - never again. If I ever move in with anyone else this will be a conversation we have in advance

Stichintimesavesstapling has it 100%

Also extends to the workplace glass ceiling.

Men who produce a baby should be legally obligated to take 9 months (maternity leave minus the physical recovery/ initial breastfeeding establishment) regardless of any - any - other considerations.

Only then is there even faint hope of equality regarding the reproductive load.

@PewterHeart

Its not possible to remove the sexist influences on our choices. Even the more egalitarian societies aren't actually that equal

We live, globally, in patriarchal societies.

The fact you use radical feminist like an insult says you don't really respect my choices either so...

I have friends like this who make excuses for their husbands never lifting a finger, never giving them downtime and think it's acceptable for them to be exhausted looking after children whilst their husband has a lie in at the weekend because he's tired even though both sides work.

I've given up saying anything but I've also stopped offering to assist with children when they are tired as it's enabling their DHs behaviour. It's not nice to see friends so down beaten but until they stop taking this kind of crap their DHs won't change.

I don't want to be misconstrued as believing that every woman wants to be a SAHM and every man wants to work every waking moment of the day... but there is a trend, when you equal out every other societal influence

You can't remove the influence of the society if your claim is that people make more 'traditional' choices in more egalitarian societies. And there are barely any SAHMs in Scandinavia - peculiar, if this is something women allegedly in those societies are gravitating towards.

And to get back to the topic, yes of course it's the society as well. I've lived all over and if most of the men barely lift a finger, your expectations are not that high either. A friend of mine in Switzerland (still stuck in 50s as feminism is concerned) was just told off by her MIL, as according to MIL, her poor son should not be doing any housework. Friend also works full time. And the general expectation in the UK is pretty similar to that. "Oh he's so good, even ironed his own shirts and is babysitting kids so I can clean the house!"
I do not know any man in Scandinavia who would think he's the king of the castle and can't possibly do any laundry, or any woman who would be happy to accept this.

This article isn't bad www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220511-why-women-file-for-divorce-more-than-men

Like I said before I don't think that every woman in Scandinavia is a SAHM, I reckon I've financially perhaps that isn't possible because the cost of living is so high, but they do gravitate to more people focussed roles in the workplace (traditionally feminine)

I suppose that my using of radical feminist as an insult is similar to your use of patriarchal as an insult. Would matriarchal be equally as bad in your view, or is it just men that are the problem? I don't see why difference is synonymous with inequality. I don't see anything wrong with men and women just being different (on average). Obviously not condoning any actual oppression - but if given the same choices and on average different decisions are made and it seems to correlate within the sexes... what is wrong with that... I just don't understand the moral judgement on simple life choices.

The % each spouse does should depend on who works more or less. If you work similar hours, you should split it equally. I do more as I work part-time. My DH thinks I do things that don't actually need done. When he retires (he hopes to before me), I will expect him to do all or most.

I get OP saying women (or men) should not stand for a lazy spouse. However, it's a bit extreme to break up children's stable home lives.

I think this is a fair way to look at it all tbh!

@PewterHeart

I havent uses patriarchal as an insult though. Its very odd you're claiming I have.

You definitely have used radical feminist as an insult.

You clearly judge women you view to be 'too' feminist

So what you actually mean by dont be so judgemental is dont judge me! I can judge. But you can't judge me.

The problem with pretending that sexism doesn't exist and that women just naturally choose not to be equal is pretty obvious I'd have thought.

Much like pretending racism doesn't exist is problematic.

I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to be taking your use of the word patriarchal... you're using it to describe a type of society which you clearly don't think is fair... so should I assume you think that patriarchy is a good thing then, no?

And labelling everything sexist doesn't make it so.

I don't think I have any right to judge someone. I said I try not to do that but I know I fall short of the mark regularly. Clearly you believe I'm being judgmental of you and so I apologise for having presented my arguments in such a way that this is how it reads. Truly my intentions were not to judge.

I simply want to point out that not everything is because of sexism, not every woman wants to have a career, women have a choice which includes the choice of being a SAHM and all choices (both personal and professional) by women should be respected, not just the ones you agree with. I truly do respect women who choose a career and motherhood at the same time - I literally couldn't do it! But I don't want to be sneered at or called a victim of a sexist society or some similar accusation because of my choice. I would like to be treated with and given the same respect that the same person would give a woman who chose to have a career as well.

@PewterHeart

It wasn't a personal remark, directed at you.

It was a statement/description of global societies. The difference is clear.

I didnt say everything was because of sexism. It heavily influences most choices. Thats inescapable.

I have no interest in respecting all choices made by women.

Lots of women make lots of terrible choices absolutely not worthy of respect.

There's nothing respect worthy about choosing to be a sahm imo. It's a lifestyle choice that has a negative impact on wider society.

I dont respect the choice to be a hedge fund manager or a tory mp either if that helps?