to be confused about social services

[whentheraincame]

Bit of a long one but it's something I have thought about a long time. There's two narratives:

SS don't do enough; don't act to remove children in obvious danger (happens sometimes of course)

SS are overzealous; remove children from loving homes (going to happen at times, right?)

there was a show over ten years ago called I Want my Baby Back and it was absolutely heartbreaking and admittedly it terrified me. Basically hairline fractures were found in children and parents were blamed for abuse. The argument was (I forget details and could never watch again) from some doctors that these were the result of Vitamin D deficiency (which let's face it, was endemic a while back and in the news loads)

So the argument was those children were wrongly removed. One mother cried "I want my baby" and honestly it's never left me. I'll have a cry about this later as I always do if I think too much about a child being removed from a loving mum.

So my question is if anyone has proper insight. I'm scared of SS in general. Although I actually had involvement with them myself when I left an abusive ex and they came to check I was not going to go back, nothing further happened once they met me - so proof they are fine I guess.

But I remember seeing a lady on the news, well spoken, and saying SS need to return her children who were removed. I had a friend tell me in work once that a friend with undiagnosed autism got the children removed due an incident where one got hurt by the other (which happens. these things happen, children do get hurt and it's often an accident that couldn't be prevented)

I guess I just don't want to see SS as evil child snatchers, and want insight into how they operate in reality and what actually gets children removed from parents' care?

Children are only removed from the family home when it is not safe for them to remain.

I think it is important to amend the above quotation - when it is perceived it is not safe for the, to remain.

In many of these cases, the majority of reasonable people would agree. In others, ‘not safe’ is a little more blurry.

thank you. that makes a lot of sense.

can I ask about a dirty house? what would that entail?

If that mother left that dad, and he had been abusive to her but not the children, would he get contact allowed by the court?

@Jellycatspyjamas yes I know very well how many chances lots of parents get given. So what, if they change their lives around in ten years why shouldn't they get another one? Children do much better with good enough parents then foster care, foster care is a huge trauma, almost 30% of dc in foster care have 3 or more moves a year - plus they often go back to their birth families around 14 ish but we continue to pay for foster care placements and try to engage with them. Why aren't we funding more initiatives to keep dc safe with their family rather than grands a week for FC and residentials that they don't want to be in.

Honestly I fail to see how it’s so bloody hard for them to get it right. If a child is being badly abused the evidence is there

So, the child is witnessing domestic abuse. Has seen their mum stretchered out of the house on a number of occasions. Mum says she’ll do the Freedom Programme and engage with Woman’s Aid, we put some home support in place to help her day to day because her mental health is shot through due to the abuse meaning she can’t consistently get the child to school.

She does ok for a few weeks, but then starts refusing access to home care, there are rumours in the community that she’s using prescription drugs bought on the street, and that her ex is back on the scene. You’ve no proof of that. Child’s school attendance is erratic again, child seems to be doing ok when they do attend.

Do you remove the child or not?

My child was known to SS for 6 years before they were removed. No rush to remove there!

The level of care was always considered 'just good enough', though it would have been far below what 99.99% of MNetters would consider appropriate for their own DC.

Not kept clean and fed sufficiently, left alone, no appropriate winter clothes, not played with sufficiently, witness to domestic abuse. BM loved her DC but could not put DC needs first consistently despite a lot of intervention. Very sad.

Because we would actually have to fund both.
Both child protection work and prevention and support.
That costs money.
The population as a whole doesn't vote to keep preventative services like children's centers funded.
They vote for lox tax parties instead currently.

Yeh I get it, but whether the child is desirable to adoptive parents should have no bearing on whether a child should be removed from their home. Children are not commodities.
I am against non-consensual adoption.

I really hate how adoption is seen as the pinnacle. There are so many failed adoptions in my team. The ultimate goal should be for dc to be loved and safe with their birth family. Yes there are absolutely awful people out there that should be nowhere near dc but most parents who have their dc removed love their dc, they just don't have the tools in their toolbox to be a good parent. That doesn't mean in the future they won't gain those tools.

Professional relationships with parents can really help but case loads, burn out and stodgy unradical social work doesn't help.

No human being can be right 100% of the time. And certainly not if that human being has twice the number of cases that they can safely handle.

So what do we as a society want? Either we never remove a child from its parent wrongly - but we leave some with abusive parents. Or we set the threshold lower and we never leave a child with an abusive parent - but some will be removed wrongly.

As a GP, in my area I feel they are too slow to remove and massive damage is done while they are procrastinating.

One problem is that it doesn't exactly attract quality people. It attracts left leaning, not particularly intelligent and well meaning people. I have taught for 20 years and no one who I would regard as exceptional has expressed a desire to do it. Its a second rate profession so expect second rate people.

Prevention work costs much less @calmlakes than fire fighting. Much less than foster care too. A radical different system is needed.

Agree with this

They are not child snatchers, theres literally nowhere to put all these so called removed children. Mistakes do happen, human errors are inevitable but they don't jist remove kids nilly willy, there's has to be suffient evidence. The majority (not all) of these women moaning about social services being evil and snatching their children are delusioned and refuse to see their errors, children are removed for a reason, it really is the last option!

So what, if they change their lives around in ten years why shouldn't they get another one?

Because the child needs a sense of security, and permanence. Could you imagine the impact of being in a care placement for all of your childhood - possibly foster care, possibly a residential unit. Knowing that every 6 months your placement will be up for review and you could be moved on to somewhere new. Knowing that all the people I’m your life are paid to care for you, that while they may care about you they don’t love you unconditionally.

Or being placed with a family, taken as their child only for your birth mum to turn up 10 years later and take you “home”. Children need to know they belong, that their whole life can’t be disrupted (for the second, third, forth time) because their birth parent finally got it together.

My grandmother was very high in social work, she was a Childrens guardian and magistrate and I was always in awe of the work she had to do but never really understood it as she couldn't talk about cases. She retired about 8 years ago now.

A few years ago I had SS involved in my family and my only advice is you should be scared. I always thought that they were an amazing entity that always did right by the children but unfortunately like any profession there are a few bad apples.

We had an absolutely horrific experience and needed counselling after because it was the worst thing that's ever happened to us. All I can say is not to trust them, they are not your friends. It's unfortunate because there are many amazing SW out there but I will never ever ever trust them.

Who sees adoption as the pinnacle?

Adoption is only done when it is the 'least worst' option.

SS try to keep the child with the birth parents, and failing that with extended family. Adoption only happens if there is no one within extended family who can keep the child safe and parent them to adulthood.

But a child only has one childhood. They can't stay 'on hold' for years and years in case the BF get their act together. They need security and permanence.

I don’t disagree that they are not child snatchers, but the evidence you mention is hardly impartial.

Yeh I get it, but whether the child is desirable to adoptive parents should have no bearing on whether a child should be removed from their home. Children are not commodities.

It isn't about children being commodities.
It is looking at the least worst option.
Many cases are really clear cut, the levels of abuse and neglect are such that removal is the only possible response regardless of future possible outcomes.
Others are less clear, would the dc have a chance at a better outcome if removed? Or given all the circumstances would they most likely have better or similar outcomes if left at home.
There is a balancing of probabilities.
As I said the least worst option for the child.
This requires an honest appraisal of future possibilities for the child, it isn't about them being a commodity.

Yeh I get it, but whether the child is desirable to adoptive parents should have no bearing on whether a child should be removed from their home. Children are not commodities.
I am against non-consensual adoption.

It really doesn’t have any bearing on the decision to remove a child.

One problem is that it doesn't exactly attract quality people. It attracts left leaning, not particularly intelligent and well meaning people. I have taught for 20 years and no one who I would regard as exceptional has expressed a desire to do it. Its a second rate profession so expect second rate people.

Thats one way to write off a whole profession - I could say the same about teaching.

@LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet absolutely and I’m sorry if you had a bad experience. My comment was to demonstrate to the op why a seemingly heartbroken mum isn’t necessarily a safe mum.

@Jellycatspyjamas foster care is not safe and secure. Almost 30% of dc in fc move 3 or more times a year, stable placements aren't the norm and you know it. I also didn't say it should be reviewed every 6 months either so don't put words in my mouth.

I think that if a parent sorts themselves out there should be an option to go through a process to revoke the LAs PR and gain it back. What is so wrong with that? It wouldn't be a SW assessing them every 6 months, it would be an application to the court and a slow, thought out process that reunites a family if a parent is able to do the work to make that permanent change.

I wouldn't disagree with you. Teaching attracts a lot of the same. I see loads of ECTs who are generally not very bright, but think they should just spend (waste?) their lives grafting endlessly. Never read a book, don't have an real understanding of current affairs.

I have taught for 20 years and no one who I would regard as exceptional has expressed a desire to do it. Its a second rate profession so expect second rate people.

This is daft. Most of the best social workers I know came into the profession in their 20's at the very earliest. It isn't a common straight from school profession.

A far bigger problem is that the conditions are so bad that it is hard to keep experienced SW's at the front line of child protection. So you have a lot of churn and inexperienced workers in the most challenging roles.

I cannot believe the insanely wrong information being given here. SW will and do take children immediately. It is not a long process at all. They did not try to work with us and even our childrens guardian didn't agree with them.

We were lucky we won against them but a lot of people don't have the support and advice to do this.

For reference, no drugs, alcohol, no prior SS involvement for the children or ourselves.

Our childrens school gave us a glowing review as did our friends and family of who many were highly professional and respected people.

We did everything we were told to do and they played us like puppets. I was very naive before I actually witnessed first hand what they can be like.

If you have not had actual experience with social workers, then please don't spread misinformation that they are only doing good. Most will but some don't.

Lucky for us our social worker was struck off, and then the next one we had was also fired from LA for terrible work.