Page 17 | to be confused about social services

whentheraincame · 2022-08-15T18:06:22+00:00

Bit of a long one but it's something I have thought about a long time. There's two narratives: SS don't do enough; don't act to remove children in obvious danger (happens sometimes of course) SS are overzealous; remove children from loving homes (going to happen at times, right?) there was a show over ten years ago called I Want my Baby Back and it was absolutely heartbreaking and admittedly it terrified me. Basically hairline fractures were found in children and parents were blamed for abuse. The argument was (I forget details and could never watch again) from some doctors that these were the result of Vitamin D deficiency (which let's face it, was endemic a while back and in the news loads) So the argument was those children were wrongly removed. One mother cried "I want my baby" and honestly it's never left me. I'll have a cry about this later as I always do if I think too much about a child being removed from a loving mum. So my question is if anyone has proper insight. I'm scared of SS in general. Although I actually had involvement with them myself when I left an abusive ex and they came to check I was not going to go back, nothing further happened once they met me - so proof they are fine I guess. But I remember seeing a lady on the news, well spoken, and saying SS need to return her children who were removed. I had a friend tell me in work once that a friend with undiagnosed autism got the children removed due an incident where one got hurt by the other (which happens. these things happen, children do get hurt and it's often an accident that couldn't be prevented) I guess I just don't want to see SS as evil child snatchers, and want insight into how they operate in reality and what actually gets children removed from parents' care?

Icanstillrecallourlastsummer · 17/08/2022 15:42

Jellycatspyjamas · 17/08/2022 15:33

And have lots of processes to hold people to account (medical profession is an obvious example).

There are a lot of processes to hold social work to account too, but the general public seem to be unaware of these. From internal complaints procedures, to independent reviews, to professional conduct procedures, local government reviews, significant case reviews and, where I am, fatal accident enquiries.

Which is why when folk say there’s no accountability I ask what they think should be in place. Social workers get suspended, sanctioned and struck off like other professionals (eg medics).

Why are there then repeated stories on threads like this where parents are banging their heads against the wall and, save going to court at vast expense and stress, have no means to prove their innocence? Then when they are found to be innocent the child is handed back without any thought to the trauma caused? And when someone mentions that they are told that doesn't actually happen and they are being tricked by parents or whatever.

So there may be processes, but clearly they are either unaccessible by the people who need it or ineffective. Is everyone on this thread who have talked about their devastating experiences just making up the incompetencies they describe? And if not, and all these incompetencies exist, why are SS/ the SW in question not be held to acocunt if there are such good existing processes?

Varoty · 17/08/2022 15:47

Social workers are more likely to remove a child who they feel is adoptable. Young, healthy, no difficulties - they remove that sort of child for fairly minor issues. Whereas a child who is older, disabled, or in some way undesirable for adoption is more likely to be left with the parents.

Jellycatspyjamas · 17/08/2022 15:47

DITD,DITD used to mean "Whichever choice you make, you'll be punished". But in this context the reality is "Damned if you do (when you shouldn't), damned if you don't (when you should)", which is only really the same as everyone else's job, too.

We may be speaking at cross purposes then, for me it means whatever decision you make will be the wrong one. I decide to remove a child following a medical assessment of non-accidental injury, the subsequent investigation shows a little known medical condition - the decision to remove could be considered the wrong one because it caused trauma to the family. I decide things look safe enough, despite the non-accidental injury - and decide to monitor the family at home. The child is back in hospital with serious injuries and evidence of assault. That too would be considered the wrong decision.

At the time of making the decision you have no real way of knowing - you can assess and use your judgement and experience but you can’t know for certain. And both decisions could have positive outcomes or tragic ones, and then your decision making will be scrutinised with the benefit of hindsight by people who have all the time in the world to look at it.

It is the job, and I was happy doing it, until the environment felt unsafe.

The problem is we appear to have an underfunded, underresourced service with inadequate information infrastructure and some areas of very poor working culture and working practice, with too few well-trained staff to get rid of the duds

Well trained, experienced, competent workers won’t hang around child protection for long in my experience. I know some teams where a worker with 3 years experience is the longest serving member of staff, which is absolutely nothing in CP terms.

Neverfullycharged · 17/08/2022 15:48

That was another really insightful post from @ClumpingBambooIsALie

I have yet to see a thread on here where mention of social services hasn’t prompted a ‘there must be more to it’ response from numerous posters. Just as worrying in a way are posters who urge someone struggling with fairly routine but still distressing experiences like bereavement or depression to get help from SS, as if they are a cosy hand holding service to support parents struggling a wee bit.

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 17/08/2022 15:55

Varoty · 17/08/2022 15:47

Social workers are more likely to remove a child who they feel is adoptable. Young, healthy, no difficulties - they remove that sort of child for fairly minor issues. Whereas a child who is older, disabled, or in some way undesirable for adoption is more likely to be left with the parents.

Now I’ve been VERY anti-SS on this thread, wouldn’t trust ANY social worker as far as I could throw them, think there’s a lot of moral bankruptcy and corruption in the industry…but this statement is utter, utter horseshit.

As if they walk into a home and think “I know what I need - more children for all the adopters we don’t have. Hey there’s a pretty one who doesn’t need to be removed from their parents. But I’ll take them anyway, even though we are short on adopters, even though this solves literally zero problems”.

In reporting your scaremongering post

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 17/08/2022 15:56

Jellycatspyjamas · 17/08/2022 15:47

DITD,DITD used to mean "Whichever choice you make, you'll be punished". But in this context the reality is "Damned if you do (when you shouldn't), damned if you don't (when you should)", which is only really the same as everyone else's job, too.

We may be speaking at cross purposes then, for me it means whatever decision you make will be the wrong one. I decide to remove a child following a medical assessment of non-accidental injury, the subsequent investigation shows a little known medical condition - the decision to remove could be considered the wrong one because it caused trauma to the family. I decide things look safe enough, despite the non-accidental injury - and decide to monitor the family at home. The child is back in hospital with serious injuries and evidence of assault. That too would be considered the wrong decision.

At the time of making the decision you have no real way of knowing - you can assess and use your judgement and experience but you can’t know for certain. And both decisions could have positive outcomes or tragic ones, and then your decision making will be scrutinised with the benefit of hindsight by people who have all the time in the world to look at it.

It is the job, and I was happy doing it, until the environment felt unsafe.

The problem is we appear to have an underfunded, underresourced service with inadequate information infrastructure and some areas of very poor working culture and working practice, with too few well-trained staff to get rid of the duds

Well trained, experienced, competent workers won’t hang around child protection for long in my experience. I know some teams where a worker with 3 years experience is the longest serving member of staff, which is absolutely nothing in CP terms.

I know what you mean about the DITD statements @Jellycatspyjamas - and have appreciated your input on this thread even though you aren’t on the same ‘side’ as me

LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet · 17/08/2022 15:58

“Oh and meanwhile, the one who needs removing more, the disabled one, I’ll just leave them with their shit parents”

Honestly I understand better than anyone the distrust in the service but this is way too tinfoil hat for my liking

Jellycatspyjamas · 17/08/2022 16:02

Is everyone on this thread who have talked about their devastating experiences just making up the incompetencies they describe?

I think folk are just so relieved to get their child back they never want to speak to another professional again. I have some experience in working with families through the significant case review process which is undertaken when a child dies or is harmed and there has been social work involvement. There’s usually a period of time between the incident and review, some families take part in the process and provide very valuable insight, some just aren’t in a place to take part and some really don’t want social work near them - understandably.

I think the public are less aware of registering body professional conduct processes, or that their local councillor can become involved in local authority complaints. The general feeling of powerlessness that can be part of the impact of CP processes also contributes to folk feeling stuck and yes, I think more could be done to redress that balance and empower people to access the processes available.

Someone up thread suggested a listening type service, which again could be a useful addition and in Scotland the Children’s Commisioner can investigate concerns that children’s rights aren’t being upheld.

ClumpingBambooIsALie · 17/08/2022 16:10

We may be speaking at cross purposes then, for me it means whatever decision you make will be the wrong one. I decide to remove a child following a medical assessment of non-accidental injury, the subsequent investigation shows a little known medical condition - the decision to remove could be considered the wrong one because it caused trauma to the family. I decide things look safe enough, despite the non-accidental injury - and decide to monitor the family at home. The child is back in hospital with serious injuries and evidence of assault. That too would be considered the wrong decision.

Possibly we are. I think it's strange to consider something the wrong decision simply because the outcome was bad. We can't see the future and can only operate on the information we have available at the time. I think everyone on the thread would probably acknowledge that there are situations where it is impossible at first encounter for SS to immediately ascertain how much risk the child is at if left with their parents, and whichever decision they make there's a possibility it will result in harm that wouldn't have otherwise occurred.

The way it's used on many threads about SS, DITDDITD is more of a blanket statement that comes out to excuse them and say they're unfairly criticised, even when talking about cases where it seems that social services should've had plenty of time, opportunity and evidence to ascertain what was going on, and still made a decision that resulted in enormous harm.

I don't think social workers should be damned if an investigation shows that they did everything they should've done, and the decision they made was the right one to make based on the information they had. I'm more of a "damned if you fuck up when you had the opportunity not to fuck up" person.

Icanstillrecallourlastsummer · 17/08/2022 16:11

@Jellycatspyjamas but doesn't anyone, at any point in the authority or organisation say "hmm, well maybe soemthing is going wrong if this happened and it's not really enough to just hand back the children and go on your merry way"? Why is it up to the - understandably - traumatised parents to have to pursue it?
And I just can't take the concept of a listening service when someone entirely innocccent has had their child removed for weeks or month and had to go through court proceedings to prove their innocence entirely seriously. It's a little like a plaster for an amputated leg.

Cassimin · 17/08/2022 16:12

Varoty
load of rubbish, I have and I know lots of carers who look after disabled children.
There are too many kids in care and not enough adopters.
where do you get your info from ?

UndertheCedartree · 17/08/2022 16:35

MistressoftheDarkSide · 17/08/2022 12:51

The main problem, as I see it, is that SS are a system, and no system can accommodate all the variables in each individual case - therefore there should be flexibility applied because no two cases are the same, especially in the case of medically diagnosed child abuse.

At the beginning of my case, I was confident that while yes, my child needed to be safeguarded due to the concerns identified, a robust investigation would be done, including medically, and all other possibilities would be ruled out before a conclusion would be drawn. I balked at the notion of needing a solicitor - we had done nothing wrong.

However, the actuality was this - reporting doctors said “child abuse” and the SWs said if the doctors say so it must be true. From that point the only way to get further investigation was with permission of the court. This takes time.

Yes we got three “expert opinions” - 2 experts in child abuse, one of which At GOSH only saw x-rays and claimed that was all she needed due to the type of fracture. The blood man identified anomalies recorded at the time of the fractures, but by the time he got involved those anomalies had resolved - how? Why? We’ll never know. He was duty bound to concur with the other experts on the balance of probabilities that abuse had occurred. And when wrote to him with adoption apparently imminent, he said he genuinely didn’t realise that was the possible outcome, but he was sorry, there was nothing he could do.

I was told my DS couldn’t have brittle bones because his calcium levels were normal - which totally overlooks the possibility of OI - a collagen abnormality.

When we suggested a collagen test could be done, it was said that it could be considered further abuse if we pressed for it. It was a biopsy and Lord knows the thought of DS suffering was abhorrent but what if his actual health? I have selective hyper mobility but this was considered irrelevant.

I could go on and on, but the bottom line is that the system for accused parents is a juggernaut that is nigh on impossible to stop.

There we’re a couple of workers who were relatively humane in their treatment of me, but plenty others who weren’t.

There was also an element of punishment in subtle ways - I was BF but this could not be accommodated while DS was in FC and no expressing was allowed either. I asked at my GP for help to dry up my supply and was flat out refused for no good reason - yeah, as my supply was rather prolific that was a hellush thing to manage around journeying an hour each way in the week for two hours of contact, plus a day in the Family Centre once a week to demonstrate my parenting. Which was the furthest away, most difficult to get to Centre locally - another test of commitment I suppose.

Sorry for venting, but a PP is right - these things need to be highlighted and changed and if we can’t discuss it without being told we’re lying, mistaken or conspiratorially biased against bad practise, the losers will continue to be children every time.

Your experience sounds absolutely hellish and my own experience pales into insignificance. I'm so sorry you experienced that. I'm sorry if I've missed this, but what happened in the end for you to get your baby back? It seems all minds were made up at the very start.

Jellycatspyjamas · 17/08/2022 16:58

And I just can't take the concept of a listening service when someone entirely innocccent has had their child removed for weeks or month and had to go through court proceedings to prove their innocence entirely seriously. It's a little like a plaster for an amputated leg.

The idea of a listening service was suggested by someone else I think for people going through the system. I’ve said up thread there should be the offer if independent support and counselling for anyone whose child has been removed, whether they’re returned or not.

There are processes for local authorities to look and think we need to change - I’m involved in a lot of self evaluation work initiated by the social work department or the multi agency oversight group. Those are internal processes that initiate change when systemic problems are identified. They’re usually looking at a cohort of cases or a particular recurring theme. Sometimes from that individual cases are identified that go on to individual review. We also look at areas of identified good practice to build on and embed positive approaches into general practice.

Where an individual feels their particular situation has been mishandled there are complaints and review processes but to some degree the individual needs to raise that - and escalate that through the forums available.

Icanstillrecallourlastsummer · 17/08/2022 17:05

Jellycatspyjamas · 17/08/2022 16:58

And I just can't take the concept of a listening service when someone entirely innocccent has had their child removed for weeks or month and had to go through court proceedings to prove their innocence entirely seriously. It's a little like a plaster for an amputated leg.

The idea of a listening service was suggested by someone else I think for people going through the system. I’ve said up thread there should be the offer if independent support and counselling for anyone whose child has been removed, whether they’re returned or not.

There are processes for local authorities to look and think we need to change - I’m involved in a lot of self evaluation work initiated by the social work department or the multi agency oversight group. Those are internal processes that initiate change when systemic problems are identified. They’re usually looking at a cohort of cases or a particular recurring theme. Sometimes from that individual cases are identified that go on to individual review. We also look at areas of identified good practice to build on and embed positive approaches into general practice.

Where an individual feels their particular situation has been mishandled there are complaints and review processes but to some degree the individual needs to raise that - and escalate that through the forums available.

So you do think all is fine and SS are perfectly accountable then?

Icanstillrecallourlastsummer · 17/08/2022 17:06

bar this listening service and proceeses local authorisies could look at of course....

ClumpingBambooIsALie · 17/08/2022 17:09

Where an individual feels their particular situation has been mishandled there are complaints and review processes but to some degree the individual needs to raise that - and escalate that through the forums available.

Surely they are likely to fear repercussions, especially if there's a history of innocent things they say or do coming back to bite them when it comes to social services? I think if I were in that situation and had kept my children, I'd be scared to rock the boat. So review needs to be internally instigated.

when2become3 · 17/08/2022 17:17

ClumpingBambooIsALie · 17/08/2022 17:09

Where an individual feels their particular situation has been mishandled there are complaints and review processes but to some degree the individual needs to raise that - and escalate that through the forums available.

Surely they are likely to fear repercussions, especially if there's a history of innocent things they say or do coming back to bite them when it comes to social services? I think if I were in that situation and had kept my children, I'd be scared to rock the boat. So review needs to be internally instigated.

Exactly this! After you have been manipulated and bullied by a certain organisation, you realise the power they hold. It's like the police, how many times do people complain and something actually happens. These people have so much power and it goes no where.

I was secretly given a complaints form by an actual social worker because they said we can't let this keep happening. It's been a few years and I still am too afraid to do anything about it. People are living in fear every single day.

Jellycatspyjamas · 17/08/2022 17:27

So you do think all is fine and SS are perfectly accountable then?

If you read my responses on this thread you’d know the answer to that. The idea that there is no review, reflection or accountability isn’t true - there are a variety of internal and external processes in place. I haven’t said there aren’t improvements to be made - you asked if no one ever said “somethings gone wrong here” and I explained the processes that exist that do just that.

I’m trying very hard to answer questions around accountability - I haven’t at any point said everything is fine. It’s very easy to say it’s all shite, and social workers are unaccountable and irresponsible and uncaring - it’s much harder to say what accountability would look like. Someone referred to accountability in terms of medical decisions - those processes exist for social work (and I’d argue getting the nhs to admit malpractice is no easy thing either).

So review needs to be internally instigated.

Reviews are internally instigated, but not for every case where a child was returned following investigation. The complaints process allows for an internal independent review, but the complaints process needs to be instigated and followed to initiate the review.

Jellycatspyjamas · 17/08/2022 17:31

I was secretly given a complaints form by an actual social worker because they said we can't let this keep happening.

I don’t understand why they would give you it secretly, they have a duty to provide you with details of the complaints process as part of their work, and to explain the appeals process for any decision made. I’m not saying it didn’t happen but for me part of my first meeting with parents would include giving a copy of the complaints and appeals process.

Icanstillrecallourlastsummer · 17/08/2022 17:37

Jellycatspyjamas · 17/08/2022 17:27

So you do think all is fine and SS are perfectly accountable then?

If you read my responses on this thread you’d know the answer to that. The idea that there is no review, reflection or accountability isn’t true - there are a variety of internal and external processes in place. I haven’t said there aren’t improvements to be made - you asked if no one ever said “somethings gone wrong here” and I explained the processes that exist that do just that.

I’m trying very hard to answer questions around accountability - I haven’t at any point said everything is fine. It’s very easy to say it’s all shite, and social workers are unaccountable and irresponsible and uncaring - it’s much harder to say what accountability would look like. Someone referred to accountability in terms of medical decisions - those processes exist for social work (and I’d argue getting the nhs to admit malpractice is no easy thing either).

So review needs to be internally instigated.

Reviews are internally instigated, but not for every case where a child was returned following investigation. The complaints process allows for an internal independent review, but the complaints process needs to be instigated and followed to initiate the review.

Yes, you keep saying that. But then you also keep defending what's there and saying that there's plenty of accountability already, people just dont' know about it.
The fact of the matter is that clearly the processes that are there are insufficient. when these things keep happening and the response is no smoke without fire, SWs can't win etc etc

Icanstillrecallourlastsummer · 17/08/2022 17:39

Btw, I am not saying it's all shit or all SW are. Or that there is no accountability at all. But I am saying things happen that shouldn't, and far too often. Therefore greater, or better, accountability is clearly necessary. I don't know what exactly that should look like because that is not something I know enough about.

when2become3 · 17/08/2022 17:44

Jellycatspyjamas · 17/08/2022 17:31

I was secretly given a complaints form by an actual social worker because they said we can't let this keep happening.

I don’t understand why they would give you it secretly, they have a duty to provide you with details of the complaints process as part of their work, and to explain the appeals process for any decision made. I’m not saying it didn’t happen but for me part of my first meeting with parents would include giving a copy of the complaints and appeals process.

It wasn't our direct social worker. It was a social worker supporting my parents as they were looking after my children while it happened. She printed it and personally took it to my parents house and we hadn't even asked for one. To be honest to me it's not worth the paper it's written on. No amount of complaining will heal what we went through. We missed vital stages of our newborns life which we can never replace. First smile, first laugh, first crawl, luckily we caught the steps as it was over by then. We were robbed of things that a complaint cannot fix. I can't even think about it because I get so upset still, we missed birthdays. Nothing anybody does will make it right in my eyes.

Jellycatspyjamas · 17/08/2022 17:47

But then you also keep defending what's there and saying that there's plenty of accountability already, people just dont' know about it.

Saying what is there already isn’t being defensive, it’s saying what’s already there that does hold workers and organisations to account. You admit you don’t know enough about it to know what greater accountability would look like, so surely knowing what’s already there might help inform where the gaps are?

Jellycatspyjamas · 17/08/2022 17:54

To be honest to me it's not worth the paper it's written on. No amount of complaining will heal what we went through.

I can totally understand that, and it’s part of the difficulty really that the damage is done, and no amount of complaining, therapy or policy review will change that particular harm. So folk don’t complain, because there’s no closure to be had because you can’t get that time back again. I’m sorry for the loss of that time with your previous child and really head the impact on you and your family. I wish you all every good thing.

when2become3 · 17/08/2022 18:12

Jellycatspyjamas · 17/08/2022 17:54

To be honest to me it's not worth the paper it's written on. No amount of complaining will heal what we went through.

I can totally understand that, and it’s part of the difficulty really that the damage is done, and no amount of complaining, therapy or policy review will change that particular harm. So folk don’t complain, because there’s no closure to be had because you can’t get that time back again. I’m sorry for the loss of that time with your previous child and really head the impact on you and your family. I wish you all every good thing.

Thank you for that I appreciate you saying that.
The sad thing is, once you've had a bad experience you automatically just fear them all which is unfair because the majority want to help you.