Comedians defending Jerry Sadowitz

[FenlandFuckwit]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-62533592

His latest gig has been cancelled after he told racist jokes and got his dick out. Why are other comedians defending his right to do this? This behaviour is not ok, AIBU to think this is indecent and disgusting behaviour and the venue were correct in cancelling him.

I think the point about films showing racism or violence or nudity was related to safe feeling unsafe. If racism/violence/nudity are depicted in art in any form does it make staff 'unsafe'? They are at no more practical or physical risk from a film depiction than a theatre depiction than a comedy performance.

So the risk they're referring to must be emotional? In which case, where are the limits. Is it fine when it has a multi-billion dollar Hollywood industry behind it but not when it's a fringe show? Is it funding that makes it more 'safe'? Is it the politics of consumerism that denotes risk?

With the caveat that no-one has to work in a theatre (movie or traditional) and everyone has the right to determine their own level of risk and act accordingly.

Censorship is always political. Doesn't matter how you dress it up, trying to restrict creative freedom whether attacking authors, poets, dancers, artists or comedians - is a right-wing position. As someone put it during the week, discussing Rushdie, now people are trying to create a culture where we've internalised the fatwa - where publishers, theatres, agents, etc, are supposed to bow to pressure and be silent rather than risk offence. That is terrifying.

This is exactly my point, there's a huge difference between being "pro women" and being "anti-trans." I'm very, very concerned that you're twisting what I said, which is that people who are actively anti-women's rights are using the fact that they are also anti-trans to pretend they somehow pro-women when they are not.

Think of all the far right wing politicians who want to ban abortion, treat women who have miscarriages or stillbirths as potential criminals, outlaw essential epilepsy medication because it could hypothetically be used to induce an abortion, ban birth control. Even certain male politicians who have been accused of rape and wife beating have been given the "gender critwashing" treatment. People with a right wing agenda and people who hate women and want to steal our rights are exploiting us GC women's legitimate concerns over gender ID as a way of making deeply misogynistic beliefs and political policies that actively hurt or could kill women more palatable, and try to brainwash us into supporting men who hate us and want to reduce us to chattel on the grounds "at least they know what a woman is."

NO. I will never ever support a rapist, a wife-beater, or someone who wants to ban abortion, just because they're against self-ID. I will never ever stop standing up against the gaslighting and attempts to convince GC women that we should support abusive misogynistic men.

This Jerry Sadowitz thing is an excellent example. By all accounts he went out of his way to not make any jokes about trans people, trans people are apparently the ONLY group he didn't target (why oh why do so-called "edgy" comedians treat trans people as some special group on a pedestal?) There's not a single report, review, tweet anywhere that says his act even mentions trans people; I've seen tweets and reviews from people who attended the show confirming that he doesn't mention trans people once in his act; and "transphobia" is suspiciously missing from the list of things he's accused of, which is weird since everyone and their aunt gets accused of transphobia nowadays.

Female audience members have been harassed and subject to verbal abuse and even groping by fellow audience members (I have a friend who went to see one of his shows, and he directed a stream of racial slurs to her directly when she was the only non-white person in the audience). The audience are encouraged to get wasted. You really think an audience of drunk rowdy blokes who have been ramped up and egged on to think that women are just holes are going to understand the difference between "ironic racism" (or "satirical misogyny") and actual racism/misogyny?

The content warning says this: “strong language and themes some may find distressing." Where in that warning does it say "you might be called a racial slur and have a dick shoved in your face"?

Knob gags are usually shite. But in one of his shows, he does a sketch about being at the self service tills in tesco, and it keeps beeping "unexpected item in the packing area" So he says "Ill give you unexpected" and he lobs his knob out.

That is a worthy knob gag.

Finding this debate so interesting. Agree, offensive comedy should have its place, and come with the appropriate warnings, so people can vote with their feet.

But what about staff? They dont get a choice in what they hear. Should you have to listen to Frankie Boyle night after night whilst on minimum wage? That is trickier.

I suspect this will go all The Crucible, with staff at venues across the city feeling unsafe and demanding the witches are burnt.

Then when the festival is utterly bland and ticket sales have tanked someone with a bit of sense will tell them to wind their necks in.

The character of Alf Garnett was supposed to be racist. Neither the writer nor the actor who played him were racist. Quite the opposite.

The audience was supposed to laugh AT him. Unfortunately, many people watching at home were racist and laughed WITH him. Children would go into school the next day and use the character's racist comments to racially abuse their classmates.

The intention was good, the results weren't.

Ok so you don't see the point, you don't like the sound of it, you're surprised its a thing.

That's all fine, but what makes you think your opinion has any relevance to anyone but you? You don't like the sound of it, so don't book a ticket. Don't go. Why would you or anyone else think your dislike of it means that it shouldn't exist at all?

Well yes. It takes quite a special kind of person to think that 12 Years a Slave was condoning slavery.

Warren Mitchell used to tell stories about bigots coming up to him and hailing him as a hero who was telling it like it was. He told them as if they were hilarious stories showing how the stupid racist had been fooled and he never seemed to understand why this wasn't a good thing.

It's a no win situation tbh: if you make your satire obvious enough that even the dimmest racist can't think that their views are being validated on prime time TV then it's never going to be the sophisticated political comedy your friends would value.

And this is why Sadowitz couldn't and shouldn't go mainstream and I think an influx of "anti-snowflakes" to his shows can only end in tears one way or another.

People really struggle with this as a concept. Catherine Tate trod a very similar line with some of her characters and it's uncomfortable knowing that a significant portion of people watching are laughing for different reasons

But what about staff? They dont get a choice in what they hear. Should you have to listen to Frankie Boyle night after night whilst on minimum wage? That is trickier.

I can't watch certain films because of violence. I don't work in a cinema.

I have worked for social services so heard and saw some things but would give an average person PTSD.

If you work in the arts, you are going to see some edgy things. You either want the job or not, with the attendant issues.

I don’t want to see animals killed so I don’t work in an abbatoir.
I don’t want to deal with teeth so I’m not a dental nurse.
I’m needlephobic so I don’t work as a phlebotomist.
I don’t want to work with the public behaving at their worst so I’m not a police officer.
I get claustrophobic in breathing apparatus so I don’t work in the frontline of the fire service.

Get the gist?

Then the show page should mention that it might contain nudity. Period.

But it doesn’t, so that’d be silly.

It seems unlikely that JS broke off from his comedy act to seriously call Sunak a p* - and more probable that he was satirising the attitudes of others, including the racist Tory members who "aren't ready for a brown one".

Re Graham Linehan - it also seems unlikely that the theatre trust would have omitted transphobia from the list of alleged sins, had it been a factor in the cancellation.

Also, from what I’ve heard about it, I wouldn’t book tickets for Shannon Matthews:The Musical (another thread running about this). Wouldn’t want it shut down, though, because some people do want to see it.
I have a friend who went to see Chubby Brown in Blackpool. I would honestly rather jump off the North Pier than go inside the building and see him. Boys in my 6th Form used to put his live show recordings on the communal record player and it was horrible and oppressive. I don’t know why the staff didn’t step in tbh, but the early 80s was prime era for his sort of comedy. I still don’t think he should be cancelled either and the line between “character saying offensive things to reflect back the audience’s prejudices “ is much more hazy than Sadowitz’s imo.

As @hotdiggetydog was there, maybe they can clear up whether there were any references that might be considered transphobic in the show?

You don't think an exposed penis counts as nudity?

Warren Mitchell used to tell stories about bigots coming up to him and hailing him as a hero who was telling it like it was. He told them as if they were hilarious stories showing how the stupid racist had been fooled and he never seemed to understand why this wasn't a good thing.
That's not how I remember it at all. I may be wrong but, from what I can recall, both Mitchell and Johnny Speight stood by their work but also talked about how uncomfortable they felt when that kind of thing happened and didn't have any easy answers.
The difference for me is that, as I remember, 'Till Death do us Part' was screened before the watershed - I'm not even sure the watershed existed then. I can see the problem with that but I don't think it's the same thing as an all adult theatre show where there are warnings about the content.
I agree that this shouldn't be a mainstream show and, from what I've read, Sadowitz is very careful to control content e.g. not to release it onto You Tube.

But what about staff? They dont get a choice in what they hear. Should you have to listen to Frankie Boyle night after night whilst on minimum wage? That is trickier

It's not tricky at all. If you are a vegan you can't expect to go and work in an abbatoir and demand that they cease slaughtering animals. If you're scared of heights you can't work as a rigger and insist on not going above the ground. If you're short, plain and dumpy you can't insist that an agency hires you as a model (although some people seem to find even that a problem now). If you have a medical condition that doesn't allow you to drive, you can't work as a truck driver.
And so on. Where did this idea come from that anyone is entitled to any job and that the company must make the necessary adjustments? It doesn't work like that.

One of the comedians who was on the Andrew Doyle show last night discussing this, has said:

twitter.com/leokearse/status/1559130847101460480?s=21&t=8pHdhcfwxBvJnBqGLkt0WQ

"I was supposed to discuss Jerry Sadowitz's cancellation from the Edinburgh Fringe on BBC Scotland this morning but they decided just DISCUSSING the issue would contravene their hate speech rules.
Hate speech rules aren't there to help us. They exist to silence us."

So not only do we have no confirmation as to what was said, now the country's broadcaster won't even discuss it.

I'm sure I remember Warren Mitchell telling that story the light hearted way floisme, but it was a long time ago and of course it's possible he told it both ways over time depending on context.

JemimaPuddlegoose I have seen Sadowitz live and nothing like that happened. Most of the audience got it just fine. There was one group of guys that were laughing for the wrong reasons and they massively stood out as the minority. And no-one groped anyone, we were seated in a theatre.

The Pleasance knew exactly who they were booking and knew everything about his act - he's been playing Edinburgh for ever. And the Pleasance is a bastion of the festival - in many ways it's the symbol of the fringe (which was always counter cultural, anarchic and anti high art). Its impossible to imagine that they've suddenly discovered he's offensive to some people. It's on them that they decided to cancel the show and completely understandable that comedians would hate it. It makes a mockery of the whole festival and its ethos that suddenly acts can be pulled after a few complaints. If the fringe fails to stage the random, the chaotic, the crass, the weird, the edgy it's no longer the fringe.

Absolutely everyone and everything was fair game to be honest. He wasn't discriminatory in that sense.

Yes that's possible. It was a long time ago and probably pre-Internet so can't be checked but my impression was that he was a very thoughtful guy who was proud of his role but acknowledged the discomfort and the risk. Or maybe he changed his mind.

If the fringe fails to stage the random, the chaotic, the crass, the weird, the edgy it's no longer the fringe.

I've worked Edinburgh Fringe several times. I've seen a million shows there. One of my best friends is one of the heads of programming.

Exposing your penis without warning and calling people racial slurs is not "random, chaotic, weird and edgy."