To think women are more toxic than people would like to admit?

[MarthaMayver]

I'd like to start by saying by no means are all women toxic, I'm a female myself and have always been a huge supporter of feminism and "sisterhood" if you will. However the more behaviour I witness from women, I'm starting to stray away from seeing them as allies.

I have worked in female dominated sectors my entire life and have constantly had to witness cliques, gossiping, power plays, passive aggressiveness, and downright bullying. I had to leave my last job as it was affecting my mental health so badly.

I always thought this was just part and parcel of working in groups. However I started a new job last year, with an equal spread of male and female colleagues and there has been none of this. I'm now wondering if the problem with all of my previous workplaces was the fact that they were female dominated.

To me, it's very obvious in person how women favour men over their own gender, regardless of how much "female empowerment" and "Women Supporting Women" is preached these days. For example, they will let men get away with mistakes they wouldn't let other women get away with. Male incompetence is often seen as "cute", whereas the same behaviour coming from a woman would be laughed or sneered at.

There are so many stories coming out in recent years of mothers favouring their sons over their daughters, and at worst bullying and abusing their daughters whilst worshiping their sons. I now think back to my own childhood and I can remember many occasions where my mother would put me down for something, while supporting my male siblings for doing the same thing. There were also a lot of sly, underhand insults that I didn't realize at the time, that were never directed towards my brothers.

I'm prepared to be told IBU, but I'm also very interested in knowing how many people agree, or if anyone has any similar experiences.

Right, so not equal then.

I work in financial technology which is still pretty male-heavy especially at the higher levels, so I've mainly been in mixed work groups, usually with more men.

The WORST experiences were all in situations in which I was the only woman in the work group. It doesn't always happen but there's a definite dynamic that if the leader or manager is kind of misogynist, the other guys tend to follow along even if they're fine to work with one on one. I've questioned male coworkers about it (in private) and the answers are always that it's smart and polite to mirror the boss, it's trivial, you know how he is, just let it go, it would be rude to say anything, etc. It just doesn't impact them.

I've also seen senior women's careers derailed by "getting hung up on" sexism - by which I mean they were negatively impacted by sexism and therefore started seeing sexism and wanting to combat it, and then got sidelined when their own (male) colleagues and bosses started to label them as radfems or whatever. It's a whole set of issues that only impact women directly.

Individual women can of course be "as bad as" individual men (or vice versa). All this bullying and gossiping sounds really unprofessional, though; a good manager should rein that in if only so work gets done and there aren't endless complaints (or lawsuits). If management and HR are ineffective it's sometimes just time to look for another employer.

You sound very personally offended. Why else would you be trying to derail the thread so badly?

@Ladybug9 So sorry to hear this Hope you're doing better now.

This thread has provided anecdotal, circumstantial and a recent report of the Priti Patel bullying case as evidence it is happening. Have you determined every woman on here saying it happens is a liar? No. Have you proven that the % difference of more women than men in poverty, not working or looking for work, suffering from mental illness, attempting suicide more often is not due even partially to toxic workplaces? No.

You can prove something doesn’t exist/isn’t happening…if you had any evidence to the contrary. But the thing is you don’t.

I’m not offended at all, I responded to your post and asked you a question. And I’m not derailing, I’m having a discussion about female toxic behaviour and the widespread effects on society.

@Pumperthepumper agreed, that’s the key question, if people are going to talk about “what women are like” then it’s necessarily going to be in contrast to men, or in the context of some behaviour that seems specifically gender-mediated. A quick glance at the evidence suggests that men may be more likely to be bullies in the workplace.

“Are women more likely to bully than men?The simple answer to this question is “no.” The current reality is that people holding positions of power and control over others in the workplace are more likely to be men than women. Accordingly, studies generally reveal that 60-75% of those who bully others in the workplace are men, while 60-75% of the targets are women.”

@Discovereads you may feel this is a big issue, and that toxic female workplaces are a significant problem, but how big an issue is it? What evidence is there of this?
There is a serious concern that male aggression in fact is leading to increased suicide among women. Is there any reason to believe the same thing is happening at significant rates because of women in the workplace? Or are you mainly going by personal experience?

But I don’t think it’s a widespread problem in society. You do - so I’m asking you why you think that, and you can only give me one example.

They are equal to me.

Right, well, they’re not to society, which is why Marcus Rashford spends so much time trying to make the world a bit better for the poverty stricken kids that Boris Johnson doesn’t want to pay for.

you’re the only one pursuing this “widespread effect on society” angle. Other people are just having a top level discussion about their experiences.

So?

Inclined to agree but would counter that it is balance you need. Working with 90% males can be unpleasant in different ways. The sick stuff they end up talking about or 'harmless (racist) banter. I shudder when I think back to a guy on a help desk i worked on who used to graphically describe his sex life. He once described how he broke a woman's perineum without realising because he was so rough. Makes my vag freeze in dread still 20 years later.

However the levels of psychological damage done to me by women at work over that same time period far surpasses it. Give me toxic alpha males any day.

So that’s why we have feminism, and Black Lives Matter and poverty-targeted funding and food bank donations. Because all people are not equal so they don’t start from the same position of equality.

I'd sooner work with men any day. Some of the worst bosses I've encountered have been women. I can put up with sexism, but that brand of petty passive aggressive bullying that some women bosses practice is beyond me.

That got nothing to do with me or my views. I’m an egalitarian. Not a feminist. Do you understand?

@Pumperthepumper OK. I am not really sure about whether it's a huge issue in society. I didn't take an interest in this thread because I thought that. I am interested in how women relate to each other and identifying any patterns. We all know that women are involved in all sorts of abusive situations - from circumcision to child marriage. We know there is a whole 'beauty' industry staffed largely by women that encourages insecurity and mental health issues. We know that women gave orders to beat slaves and that women expected other women to give their seat up on the bus for them. Not to derail the thread further, but women are not always kind to each other and I would be curious to know why.

So food banks, Black Lives Matter, Boris Johnson, Marcus Rashford, poverty, etc isn't derailing the thread then, Pumper?

I understand, thanks for your time.

Funny way to discuss something by going through the deniers playbook..a bit out of order but still there…..

1. Question whether X even exists (ignore witnesses if you have to)


2. Say even if X exists, there’s no real evidence of it (witnesses not scientists)


3. Say if X exists it is the fault of y which is some unsolvable nebulous can’t be fixed thing (in this case patriarchy) making discussion pointless/exercise in futility


4. Question whether X is worthy of discussion, minimise and belittle


5. Distract and derail by inserting larger problem A as the “real issue” so that focus is taken off X.

I’ve no idea. Are you kind all the time? I’m not sure I am, although I wouldn’t consider myself a toxic person.

@StreetwiseHercules to be fair, I’m also sort of pursuing it too, because I think these discussions can quickly run out of steam when it’s simply people saying “ well I agree because I had this experience” and someone countering with “that’s really wrong because I’ve had the opposite experience”. I think it makes sense that after a few posts people are going to want to discuss wider and deeper implications of this view point, how it plays out in reality and whether it is particularly real at all.

I’m responding to posters who ask me a question!

People can be toxic. It’s just that people expect better of women.

I haven’t experienced it myself, but I know a few people who think single or near single sex work places can be more toxic, but I’d say it applies equally to me. Some of the stories I have heard from people who work in the city for example are eye watering.

Ok, well let’s move away from the widespread effects in society then. What would you like to see happen to combat toxic women in the workplace?