To think women are more toxic than people would like to admit?

[MarthaMayver]

I'd like to start by saying by no means are all women toxic, I'm a female myself and have always been a huge supporter of feminism and "sisterhood" if you will. However the more behaviour I witness from women, I'm starting to stray away from seeing them as allies.

I have worked in female dominated sectors my entire life and have constantly had to witness cliques, gossiping, power plays, passive aggressiveness, and downright bullying. I had to leave my last job as it was affecting my mental health so badly.

I always thought this was just part and parcel of working in groups. However I started a new job last year, with an equal spread of male and female colleagues and there has been none of this. I'm now wondering if the problem with all of my previous workplaces was the fact that they were female dominated.

To me, it's very obvious in person how women favour men over their own gender, regardless of how much "female empowerment" and "Women Supporting Women" is preached these days. For example, they will let men get away with mistakes they wouldn't let other women get away with. Male incompetence is often seen as "cute", whereas the same behaviour coming from a woman would be laughed or sneered at.

There are so many stories coming out in recent years of mothers favouring their sons over their daughters, and at worst bullying and abusing their daughters whilst worshiping their sons. I now think back to my own childhood and I can remember many occasions where my mother would put me down for something, while supporting my male siblings for doing the same thing. There were also a lot of sly, underhand insults that I didn't realize at the time, that were never directed towards my brothers.

I'm prepared to be told IBU, but I'm also very interested in knowing how many people agree, or if anyone has any similar experiences.

I make this point quite a lot, Im amazed at some of the controlling posters, who are moaning about something and then categorise their partner as controlling because they wont do what the OP wants

Im usually shouted down when I point it out or accused of misogyny

Women can be evil.
i know my mouth is horrific and hurtful when I go.

I forgot to say that I feel there are lots of people, male and female who are quite emotionally stunted or unintelligent, dysregulated and externally driven and its this that causes problems, not their sex

People can be toxic regardless of sex.
I work in a male dominated environment and the majority of the females do stick together and support each other. We have a morning meeting which the women refer to ( behind make colleagues backs) as the morning willy wave.

I've genuinely never found this (and I've worked in a typing pool and been a primary school governor).

In my current - very new - position I've encountered lots of women who take time out from being competent at their own job to help me get used to mine.

Why do you think that there are not male dominated and gender balanced workplaces that have cliques, passive aggression, bullying and power games?

It depends on the industry, workplace and management culture not the genders involved.

(Some male dominated workplaces are toxic with huge competitiveness, rivalry, aggression backstabbing and bullying).

Maybe tangential - or off topic completely - but I’m fascinated by the exploitative business model of MLM, whereby women are encouraged to mine their female friendships for commercial gain. A woman from my NCT group, to whom I had previously been close, promptly fell out with me when she became an ambassador for a skincare brand and invited me to a pamper party - to which I merely responded politely that it wasn’t my thing - because it isn’t. There then ensued a hugely passive aggressive text conversation; she was obviously raging, but for some reason couldn’t bring herself to say so up front.

Men simply do not have to put up with this shit. I don’t see why I should either.

I have worked both in male heavy and female heavy institutions, I have male and female siblings, I have male and female DC, I have friends…
I haven’t experienced this.

Sounds like youve had shit workplaces and a sexist mother. Break the cycle.

The men in my male friend's life were so cruel he is in lifelong, trauma informed therapy. He has to have female therapists and can't be around men. He is around the thirtieth or so man I have met or heard of who can't stand being with men. I also work in this sector. The trauma caused by males cannot be touched by women.

Men do. It’s just not cosmetics. It’s usually things like fitness/wellness stuff or “natural” supplements marketed to older men for obvious reasons.

I wonder how it would be viewed or what it would sound like if the men of an organisation 'jokingly' refer to the morning meeting held by women in the office by derogatory comments about female genitalia?

I was just going to say this! Total naivety to view that men dont have these pushy networking dynamics, usually bigger money making schemes, cars, sports, investments etc etc

Would that be an ecumenical matter?

This is an interesting thread.

The top two bosses I ever had were both women. Very different styles of management, one was straight talking no shit, kind. The other just had the kind of aura that made you want to work really well for her. She was always approachable and you always felt she had your back, even if you’ve fucked up, ‘there’s always a solution’. She was only a couple of years older than me, but she was one of those women, who was just brilliant at everything. Not just the work stuff, but she made great cakes, was brilliant on work socials (would get pissed with us all), and was beautiful to!! I still have a bit of a crush on her and haven’t seen her for about 4 years!

However, on the flip side of that, the worst boss I ever had was also a woman. She was incompetent and very underhand. Vile piece of work!

The rest middling ones have been a mixture of men and women, although interestingly most of the men were pretty indifferent managers and just expected the team to get on with it, v little management from them. They also would save themselves first if any shit kicked off.

But to answer your question, I would
be interested to know your age, as in my twenties (and going into my thirties) I probably would have agreed with you.

Now I’m much older, I appreciate women a lot more, and find them so much more supportive. I would be interested to know if it’s because I’m not beautiful anymore. I never was one of the really pretty girls, but there’s a massive difference to the way a woman in her twenties and thirties gets treated compared with a woman in her mid/late forties and older. Looking back, there was a definite competitive steak to be extra pretty/funny/cool, but I didn’t realise it at the time.

Very true, if the men were referring to the female colleagues at the morning meetings as the morning cat fight….

“Willy wave” is just as toxic & sexist imho.

Better use sex neutral terms like pissing contest or whinge fest

Men kill women at 2 plus per week in the UK.

For all those who say women are as bad as men have a fucking word.
Yes women can be mean and bitchy but really women are NOT as toxic as men.
Christ the men who are employed to help us murder us!

Yeah my DH got sucked into one- it was selling resistance bands and those hand weights that you fill with water to “customise” your workout. 🙄

Lovely what aboutery there. We’re talking about toxic workplace environments. Not murder and mayhem.

Lovely what aboutery there. We’re talking about toxic workplace environments. Not murder and mayhem.

It's not wataboutery it's fact.

The man who murdered Sara Evard was a police officer who's nickname was the rapist.
You can talk about bitchy women hurting feelings all day its just distraction. Why not look at those who are actually hurting us?

By the way I love how you call 2 women a week murdered as wataboutery.....

It’s a fair point.

Compare the toxic derogatory way that police talk about women, the institutional prejudice and discrimination against women both in the force and crime victims; follow that through with police targeting female victims of sexual assaults as far as Wayne Couzens and it puts terms like “Willy waving” in context.

Snap.

Yes, I wonder about it myself. I notice a profound change in myself and in my experiences with other women as I have got older. There are the shared experiences of maturity and parenting which bring compassion for each other, I think. I am also not a threat to anyone anymore since I am older and less attractive than I was,

This isn't an isolated case. Every single study I've seen on the matter has found that women prefer male bosses even more strongly than men themselves do.

Agree with @MrsSkylerWhite - some are, some aren't, just like me. I've never personally observed women being especially catty, bitchy, cliquey etc, though it's clear others have.

I do think there's a degree of misogynistic exaggeration of these qualities, sort of an 'Oh, these women act so lovely dovey but really they're at one another's throats, that's why women can't run things, they're so jealous and irrational'. People are much more fixated it seems on arguments/rivalry between women than they are with those of men. I don't think these are more common among women than men; but it suits the misogynistic agenda to overstate female rivalry.