To feel increasingly alienated by Tory voters?

[BarmyBrunhilde]

I am in despair as to where our country is at. With the cost of living crisis looming (and already beginning), this winter is going to be brutal and likely life ending for so many in the UK, and the current aspiring leadership of the Tory party seem to be more interested in litigating culture wars and appeasing NIMBY pensioners in the Home countries than actually addressing any of the serious problems in the UK.

I've never been a Tory voter, but I've always been able to get along with people who have different views (provided they aren't racist/homophobic etc). But how anyone could see all the misery and deprivation on the horizon, look at the prospective leaders and frontbenchers with their complete lack of sultions, and continue with supporting them is genuinely beyond me. I find myself slowly being consumed by bitterness and rage against people for their views, and it frightens me. Am I alone in this?

In my humble opinion the tories are poor-hating racist scum.

I assume NHS or similar, with high pensions contributions - I am on £105k, and actually only pay £23k tax. I pay £7k in NI and £14k in pensions contributions, so I am not keeping the rest of it, but actual tax itself is definitely only £23k.

Put it in a tax calculator if you don’t believe me. 14% pensions contributions, standard tax code.

The party with so many non-white cabinet members, and who have a non-white candidate for leader?

There’s only one major party in the UK who’ve been investigated and found to be racist to the core by the EHCR, and that’s Labour.

Well, actually not the majority of people. That's part of the trouble with the FPTP system. More people can vote against the Tories, but the Tories get in because the votes against them are split between other parties. That's why there is tactical voting -- people vote not for the party they want in power, but to try to exclude another party. PR would be a better system, giving us a better balance. If you look at how many votes some parties have been given and they are barely represented (such as the Greens), it doesn't really represent the wishes of the electorate.

As to the opposition -- I have to agree with you. How the Tories can be tearing each other apart and not face any real opposition beggars belief.

People don't vote against anyone. It isn't Big Brother. They vote for a candidate. And the candidate most people vote for wins the seat. And the party that wins the most seats wins the election.

Well maybe if you didn't hate us so much and acted like adults rather than stroppy 6th formers, we would give more of a shit about you. Personally, if mumsnet is anything to go by, you don't reallyndeserve our respect.

@DownNative so funny how you refer to Sinn Féin as Provisional Sinn Fein/Provisional IRA whilst not doing the same with the DUP, the incompetent political wing of the ACTIVE loyalist terrorists, the UVF. The DUP/UVF also formed the murderous Ulster Resistance. Considering the IRA have not been in existence for twenty five years yet it is the loyalist paramilitaries who are currently active with over 12,000 members and the LCC paramilitaries pull the strings of the DUP, I find your stance hilarious.😂😂

It's also funny to me that no Tory voter seemed to care that their party had a confidence and supply deal with a group heavily linked to and controlled by vicious loyalist paramilitary scum. But scum loyalists only targeted Irish lives so I guess that made it ok.🙄

I'd also like to remind people that Liz Truss and Brandon Lewis met some months ago with active loyalist terrorists who have been responsible for the loss of many innocent Irish lives and who hold their own communities in drug soaked fear.

But, but, but....Jeremy Corbyn was an IRA sympathiser, amirite?

It’s a main stream party. Which means that in a democracy people can be legal members. You do realise comments like this basically fall under hate crime and malicious communications? Why do you think it’s ok to talk to people like that? If someone took offence to a comment like that you and mn wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.

Well yes, he was. He actively supported their campaign of bombing in mainland Britain, and argued against those who though otherwise.

I know that many people want to rewrite history, and pretend that he was some kind of “let’s bring people together” peacemaker, but he wasn’t; he supported only one side, the IRA.

Intelligence reports from PSNI, MI5 and the Republic of Ireland's Gardai all confirm Sinn Féin is still controlled by the Provisional Army Council.

And all confirm they still have access to weapons.

The DUP are completely irrelevant to the fact SF/PIRA were frozen out of government in the Republic of Ireland after the 2020 election there. Of course, Northern Ireland has mandatory coalition powersharing, so the DUP would never be relevant to the point about being frozen out of government.

You thought you had a point for a minute....🙄

Why didn't he get arrested and charged for such criminality?

Of course Corbyn never supported the IRA and has consistently condemned violence in NI and GB, he also campaigned for people wrong convicted of terrorism.
He also supported the GFA.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyn-on-northern-ireland

They met the Loyalist Community Council which, I'm sure you recall was set up by the British and Irish Governments jointly.

Indeed, the Irish Government has met the Loyalist Community Council. Here's the fact on the Irish Government's own website:

www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/press-releases/press-release-archive/2019/june/statement-by-tanaiste-following-meeting-with-loyalist-communities-council-.php

I'd be more than happy with any party controlled by a terrorist group or has links with one being excluded from all forms of government. That's my personal view.

But democracy and democratically elected governments have decided otherwise. Your attempted Whataboutery simply falls flat given the context of democracy.

So....what exactly does this have to do with the fact that PR systems can result in a party winning most votes AND being shut out of government in a similar way to FPTP?

Nothing at all.

It would appear such criticism of FPTP to replace with PR on this specific basis wasn't thought through.

Was it?

Clearly NOT.

Another fact to correct there is that the DUP aren't linked to the UVF.

The PUP is the political wing of the UVF. PUP = Progressive Unionist Party whose leader is Billy Hutchinson who justifies UVF murders in the same way SF/PIRA do.

Ulster Resistance was an absolute joke that only lasted a year.

And yet this has nothing to do with the point that PR does result in a party like PSF/PIRA being kept out of government!

What criminality? It was not illegal to hope that they won.

He was still saying he supported unification of the whole of Ireland in 2018, too.

He wanted Russia to be the ones to check the Russian chemical used to murder people in England, blames “the west” for the war in Ukraine, and publicly supported the antisemitic mural in London too.

The man is an abhorrent excuse for a human.

"That doesn't make sense, most countries don't do referendums for starters and those that do, put in conditions, as do most organisations in the UK that wish to change their rules."

On the contrary, it DOES make sense since you argued that "excluding people because you don't like their politics is hardly democratic is it?"

It is a feature of democracy that various voices are excluded. Indeed, the UK Supreme Court ruling on who can conduct Brexit negotiations explicitly excluded the devolved administrations in Belfast, Cardiff and Edinburgh.

How exactly is it undemocratic to exclude voices?

In Europe, 48 different referendums have been held on different aspects of the EU. By definition, the losing voice is excluded from the implementation of the result.

"PR allows the general pop. to have an MP, more or less whoever they vote for."

And a government which brings me to:

"With PR, just because a party fails to get into that years coalition, doesn't mean they never will."

In the Irish Republic, democracy has spent decades keeping PSF/PIRA out of power which has its roots in the storming of the Irish Parliament in the early 20th century being taken over by masked gunmen and in PSF/PIRAs declaration in their green book the Republic is an illegitimate creation with an illegitimate government they must overthrow in order to govern the whole island themselves.

Hence, PSF/PIRA have yet to formally hold power in the Republic of Ireland.

This is normal AND democratic which destroys your assertion it's undemocratic to exclude the political voices you don't like.

"Under FPTP, fringe parties never really have a say, 2010 excepted."

Is it really desirable to have a fring party in government?

Not really and that's democratic too.

"...just because something is Normal & Democratic, doesn't mean it cannot be improved upon."

Perhaps, BUT that was not your assertion to which I responded which was this:

"...excluding people because you don't like their politics is hardly democratic is it?"

You're now engaging in a Shifting Goalpost Fallacy. Oh dear. First, accept your original assertion isn't valid and can't stand on its own two feet under scrutiny.

Then your new point could potentially be discussed.

I do not agree. In the first-past-the-post voting system a constituency can have an MP whom the majority of the constituents did not vote for.

If the opposing votes are split between several parties then the MP might not be in receipt of a majority.

You said He actively supported their campaign of bombing in mainland Britain

that would have got him several years in jail.

Now you wish to take back that remark, good on you for realising you misspoke as they say.

@DownNative I can't really see what you are arguing for, you switch between general points and specifics, when it suits your narrative.

Just because a referendum is lost, does not mean the winning side has to ignore the opposing side, thats a choice.
Good governance is bringing the opposing side with you.

This country would so much better off if leave and remain had worked together but May made that was not going to happen.

Plenty of other non coalition parties get into power at a future date, ROI isn't the only country to have coalitions.

Dear God you are dishonest. He supported them as in wanted them to win, and said so, that was not illegal.

Anyone who can support him after the EHRC report, and his sick comments this week on Ukraine is not worth engaging with further. Thankfully you will never, ever get a UK government that goes along with views like yours.

On the contrary, I have made very valid points that undermine YOUR assertion that "...excluding people because you don't like their politics is hardly democratic is it?".

It is clearly NOT dishonest.

And this:

"Just because a referendum is lost, does not mean the winning side has to ignore the opposing side, thats a choice."

And yet it is common practice to ignore the dissenting opinion in order to implement the result.

The same happens in the aftermath of elections as we see all over Europe and the United States, for example.

That too is very much democratic.

And this from you:

"This country would so much better off if leave and remain had worked together but May made that was not going to happen."

May was trying to keep both Remain and Leave happy with her Brexit negotiations which pleased neither in the end. When it comes to implementing the results of referendums, it is not possible to give each side what they want, even in diluted form.

May wasn't trying to exclude any point of view. Her problem was you cannot serve two masters and democracy dictates ONE side must have their result implemented.

"Plenty of other non coalition parties get into power at a future date, ROI isn't the only country to have coalitions."

Hmm......was it not YOU who held up the Republic of Ireland's PR as an example for the UK to follow?!

Rather than accept that excluding both voters and parties IS a feature of democracy, you'd rather pretend it doesn't by making a generalised statement with no specifics?

Fine, but the point remains it IS democratic to exclude some voices and its a feature of democracy itself.

@AndreaC74 why don’t you try quoting the actual post made by @ImWell if you think that's what they said?

They did not state that.

But there is a body of evidence Corbyn supported Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA. As did his buddies Diane Abbott and John McDonnell.

No wonder Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell couldn't succeed in the 2019 election. When the then PSF President and PIRA Commander Gerry Adams publicly supported Corbyn, that was it. And it was the first time Adams ever publicly did so. The last time too. He couldn't get his useful idiot over the line.

I personally consider anyone voting for the current Tory shit show to be lacking in a moral compass. The only light on the horizon of the sorry state the nation has been driven to is that the demographics favour Labour. The Tories are ageing and when we finally kick them out, they can languish in hell for a couple of decades. Your welcome.

Your poorly-written whine has been noted.

The demographics don’t support Labour, but whatever keeps you happy…

When have the demographics ever not favoured Labour? Doesn't seem to help them very much.