To feel increasingly alienated by Tory voters?

[BarmyBrunhilde]

I am in despair as to where our country is at. With the cost of living crisis looming (and already beginning), this winter is going to be brutal and likely life ending for so many in the UK, and the current aspiring leadership of the Tory party seem to be more interested in litigating culture wars and appeasing NIMBY pensioners in the Home countries than actually addressing any of the serious problems in the UK.

I've never been a Tory voter, but I've always been able to get along with people who have different views (provided they aren't racist/homophobic etc). But how anyone could see all the misery and deprivation on the horizon, look at the prospective leaders and frontbenchers with their complete lack of sultions, and continue with supporting them is genuinely beyond me. I find myself slowly being consumed by bitterness and rage against people for their views, and it frightens me. Am I alone in this?

Italy’s a good example of what can happen under PR. Once parties don’t need to stay together to protect their vote share you can get a multitude of tiny parties and the inability to hold any functioning government together for long.

It’s been a bit better in recent years, but before that it was a real mess.

The in France we have PR for the presidency, requiring shenanigans behind the scenes to keep out the “wrong” parties from getting involved.

@ImWell Italy is an utterly ludicrous example as I’m sure if you have even the tiniest grasp of the history of European politics you would know full well! 😄

Why not look at all the FUNCTIONING democracies that use PR and the fact that no new democracies look at FPTP and say “ooh that looks like a fab way to run a country”?! 🤦‍♀️

So if we only look at the countries where it works well then we’ll see it working well?

That’s true, but not really the best way to judge which system is best.

YANBU

Times like this I'm grateful that I've never associated with or befriended a Tory voter in my life.

So don't have to deal with it irl when discussions arise

And how’s life in that echo chamber working out for you? Has it been a great way to change oriole’s views, get them to move over to your side, that sort of thing?

I suppose I shouldn’t joke, I’ve never knowingly employed a lefty, but they are unavoidable if you live a normal sort of life.

@ImWell do name me all the countries where FPTP works well? Not sure why you’re being deliberately obtuse but 🤷‍♀️.

UK, Canada, India, the USA.

Remember, we had a referendum on an alternative vote system, and it was roundly rejected. Complaints about our system seem to really only be heard when the left aren’t doing very well.

There’s quite a move in Canada to reform the system. I don’t think many people would think that the US system was one to emulate.
There were complaints about FPTP throughout Labour’s term in office, so I don’t think your claims about the left are justified.

@ImWell

Why would anyone associate with people they deem devoid of any common sense or humanity?

As that's what Tory Voters are

As the saying goes they're either stupid, selfish or both

Do you think it’s mainly the left complaining now? I do. Incessantly.

Rather than whining on, they’d do far better trying to convince people to vote for their party. There’s an inbuilt bias towards Labour at the moment, due to the delayed boundary changes; if Labour can’t form a government under the current system then God help them.

Have you considered joining Labour? With that level of bigotry and ignorance you’d fit right in.

Nothing wrong with that, excluding people because you don't like their politics is hardly democratic is it?

One reason Brexit happened was Cameron's fear of losing seats to UKIP and people were supporting them because they felt their views on immigration were being ignored.

With Ukip having a voice in Parliament and therefore having their policies scrutinised, maybe they would have got less votes?

Arguing that you don't want PR in case fringe parties/voters have representation isn't really a good look from the right wingers on here.

A lot of us feel like this. Tories seem to think the only thing that matters is tax cutting. They dont seem to understand that to live in a decent society, taxes are essential....high taxes are better. I have always believed I am lucky to live in a country where we pay decent taxes that provide care for the elderly, childcare for working parents, a great NHS....council houses, decent benefits for those that are disabled or unable to find employment. Then Margaret Thatcher was brought in as PM....she sold council houses...turning working class families against other working class families....who now perceive themselves are 'no longer working class as they own a property' the first time working classes were not supporting eachother, broke my heart. Now its all about selfish people looking after themselves...no care for others, self, self, self. Frankly ashamed to be British and now with Brexit...no chance of moving away because the cost of health cover for incomers too expensive. I feel your pain.

And yet higher earners are paying more under the Conservatives than under nearly all of Labour’s last time in government.

On the other side of the deal the minimum wage has increased far faster than inflation, as has the tax-free allowance, and higher earners have lost their tax benefits on pensions and have lost their tax-free allowance.

The narrative that the Conservatives are only about low taxes is not true.

I think everyone in the country seems to be complaining i’m well. I think we seem to be incredibly polarised and divided. Yes, the left are complaining, but so are the right. Sick to death of the sneering comments about ‘woke’, ‘lefties’ ‘snowflakes’ and all the rest of it. But we have a government that has deliberately inflamed that. All this banging on about ‘woke’ issues at a time of national crisis.

And yet higher earners are paying more under the Conservatives than under nearly all of Labour’s last time in government

Shows how badly they have run the economy & how they have cut wages at the bottom, so many don't earn enough to make any real income tax contribution.

I’d love to vote Labour but unfortunately they told me and many other women to leave the party because we don’t believe that biological males can be women 🤷‍♀️

Yep. There are many voters who have voted for them previously, whom they lost but could win back.

If only it wasn’t just insulting, or having a go at people and engaging with a more optimistic version of what they would offer.

Haha they should - it’s the level these days

Absolutely, the Tory leadership are making fools of themselves banging on about being against 'woke' while people up and down the country are just trying to make an honest living in the face of a major crisis.

So if you don't get the government you want you're going to go out of your way to make the lives of people less well off than you even shitter?

Not a very good advert for the Labour party really- selfish and only interested in your own wellbeing. A bit like Tory voters are accused of being.

Tory members = yes
Tory voters = no

If you read my comments more carefully, you'll find I wasn't comparing FPTP and PR as the SAME form of democracy.

On the contrary, I argued that both ARE democratic and they are also different ways of practicing democracy.

Your last line is simply your opinion and a purely hypothetical scenario in the rest of it. This is not a serious point backed by anything.

It’s a reaction to Labour’s cast-iron commitment to allowing any man who’d like to go self-ID his way into women’s spaces, sports, prisons and refuges.

It’s not inflaming anything for the government to come out and plainly set out their stall to oppose this.

If Labour don’t want to be criticised for being enablers of abusive men then they need to stop enabling them.

Well no, it shows that they increased the top rate of income tax to 45% and added 2% national insurance on top.

And how can you possibly claim that they have cut wages at the bottom when the national wage has increased so much faster than inflation? It’s clearly not true.