To feel increasingly alienated by Tory voters?

[BarmyBrunhilde]

I am in despair as to where our country is at. With the cost of living crisis looming (and already beginning), this winter is going to be brutal and likely life ending for so many in the UK, and the current aspiring leadership of the Tory party seem to be more interested in litigating culture wars and appeasing NIMBY pensioners in the Home countries than actually addressing any of the serious problems in the UK.

I've never been a Tory voter, but I've always been able to get along with people who have different views (provided they aren't racist/homophobic etc). But how anyone could see all the misery and deprivation on the horizon, look at the prospective leaders and frontbenchers with their complete lack of sultions, and continue with supporting them is genuinely beyond me. I find myself slowly being consumed by bitterness and rage against people for their views, and it frightens me. Am I alone in this?

Well that's just one tiny part of it i'mwell - there's all the other rhetoric from government about 'leftie lawyers', 'leftie civil servants' 'clamping down on woke nonsense' portraying universities as places that only encourage leftwing thought, as opposed to honing critical thinking skills. It's been going on for years - I haven't forgotten the Mail Headline 'Enemies of the People' referring to judges, which the Attorney General refused to condemn.
It's pretty bad faith to try to pretend it's just one issue.

Their supporters aren’t stupid, yet as shown here, they seem to have no interest at all in encouraging others to vote for them.

I literally can’t understand their thought process.

The conservatives, as you say, made huge gains in 2019, and the view of many on the left is to call all those ex-labour voters stupid, selfish racists.

You don’t think that civil servants tend to be to the left of the rest of society?

You haven’t seen the thread on here this week about academics conspiring to hound out anyone who would not repeat the left-wing shibboleth that trans women are women?

As for divisive, how about Rayner calling Conservatives scum?

Well if you looked at what I have said in my last few posts, I did say that both sides were engaging in divisive behaviour.
My point is that the government, who actually should be setting an example and offering a better tone, engages in divisive rhetoric.
No, I didn't see the thread you mention.
For what it's worth I know quite a few civil servants whose political views range across the whole spectrum. I don't think they are particularly left wing, but that really wasn't the point of what I was saying.

May didn't "bung money to the DUP". The money was for Northern Ireland and NOT the DUP under the powersharing rules.

Since Stormont was mothballed by SF, civil servants allocated, distributed and spent the money in Northern Ireland on behalf of Stormont.

This is very democratic. In fact, a Supply Of Consent and Confidence deal like that also is done in PR systems. So, it is democratic and a feature of democratic systems in practice!

So, I don't appreciate your insinuation it's dodgy, wrong or illegal.

The UK is NOT and never has been a two party state. It is a multiparty state. The United States is a literal two party state.

Although Scotland uses a PR system, it is often referred to as a one party state. The reality there is that a minority party who cannot get elected DIRECTLY ends up wagging the SNP dog to get concessions that are NOT supported by a majority of the electorate.

So, PR is not always representative and neither is FPTP. There's pros and cons to both.

But I suspect you're just having an online whinge rather than wanting to seriously discuss PR v FPTP. You could always join a PR campaign, you know.....let us know how you get on.

Someone on 21k doesn't benefit from a MW rise, wages have been supressed, do you not remember 10 years of wage freezes and 1% pay rises? & private sector followed suit

Many of these folk are still at the bottom of the wage ladder and don't pay much tax.

The 45% came about after it was cut from 50% in 2013, std 40% has remained unchanged but the tories have frozen rates bringing more people into these higher rates, i'll give you that.

But a better run economy would mean a higher tax take and higher thresholds.

No, you are making no sense at all now. The minimum wage increases helped those on the bottom pay, by definition. If someone was not helped by the NMW increase then they were not at the bottom.

Come on, admit it, you have criticised them for something but hadn’t checked the numbers first.

downnative - haha! I'm not in the least bothered about what you appreciate or don't in what I said about the DUP deal. We all know what happened and we all remember how the money was miraculously found within days of May claiming that there was no magic money tree. The money was found to enable her to stay in government. It was shoddy behaviour, made worse by her misleading the Queen.

As for the rest we've both articulated how we feel about FPTP and PR. I don't know why you deem it unserious, but it's of very little consequence. Don't know also why you seem to assume I'm not already campaigning - plenty of people are. I'm not going to be reporting back to you - what's the point? I know what you believe and you know what I believe. I don't think we're going to advance much further.

They can’t seem to connect that big loss with the fact there are voters they need to attract back.

It’s just lashing out of course, they might not impact the next GE too much as it’s just some on SM etc but if they fail to do well they should look at this as part of it

I wonder what sort of reaction we’ll see if another Conservative government is returned under another new female PM in 2022. Thé betting odds at the moment have that as the most likely outcome.

Effectively, you're against the poorest part of the UK which is also a post-conflict society getting an extra £1billion?

Your characterisation of the £1billion as a "bung" is woefully wide of the mark - unless you can prove it isn't with evidence?

The meaning of the term in its actual context is essentially giving a person or group money in order to do something dishonest.

What exactly is dishonest about supporting the national government on a case by case basis in return for the several years long promise of extra funding for Northern Ireland?

Nothing at all!

In the same or following year in completely separate deals, Scotland received an extra £3 billion off the back of this deal and I think Wales got an extra £2billion. You don't seem angry about this?

Supply of Consent and Confidence deals are themselves very democratic.

Not undemocratic.

Link to how £1 billion was spent in Northern Ireland:

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/confidence-and-supply-northern-irelands-1-billion/

Nothing dishonest, illegal or undemocratic about it.

As for the comment I made about the ENDING of your previous post....it really isn't a serious comment since you're dealing with a hypothetical.

Not a real situation.

So, when you don't have a real situation....make one up, aye?!

Better to deal in realities.

That being said, I would always have struggled to be in a friendship or maintain a family relationship with someone who was far-right and held extreme bigoted views (like a BNP supporter or something)

Op would you struggle to be in a friendship with someone who was a far left Trotskyite?

They’ve never been voted in by the majority of the population.

I think very few people could read what I have written and twist it to mean that I don't care about a very poor part of the UK getting funding. But please don't expect me to accept that suddenly in 2017, out of the goodness of their hearts, with no idea of self-interest, the Tories decided to give a load of money to Northern Ireland, when they had been very happy to let it be poor beforehand, whose hard-won peace they were jeopardising with Brexit, having failed to think about it adequately beforehand, and when none of the other very poor sections of the UK were receiving similar treatment.
That really is a specious and dishonest twisting of what I said. I'm leaving it there, because I'm not engaging further with that kind of behaviour. I'm fully expecting you to come back, twist some more and then claim that I can't answer what you're saying. That's fine. I'm happy to stand by what I've said on this thread and happy for anyone to come along and evaluate it.

The DUP dug in and said that they wanted much-needed funding for Northern Ireland, or they would not support the government.

The government relented, and agreed to the funding which, despite your insinuations, did not go,to,the DUP, it went to the poor communities.

This is how politics works, a government has to make compromises to get its way sometimes, and this was one of those times.

@ImWell except you don’t like governments making compromises with smaller parties to make things happen? 🤷‍♀️

Or is it only Tory governments that are allowed to do this? 😄

On the contrary, excluding people's voices because you don't like their politics IS democratic. It is a feature of democracy.

In referendum results anywhere, the voices of the losing side is literally ignored even when the vote was close. This is normal and democratic.

In the FPTP, the losing parties are all ignored in the formation of government. This is normal and democratic.

In PR systems, the party that cannot form a coalition is ignored as are their voters. Following the 2020 election in the Republic of Ireland, Provisional Sinn Féin/Provisional IRA could not form a coalition for government despite winning nearly 25% of all votes cast - more than any other singular party. Instead, Fine Gael and Fianna Fail formed the government. This is normal and democratic.

Under FPTP, PSF/PIRA would have formed the government. Doesn't take much to understand why other parties could not allow a party with PSF/PIRA history to form the government. Also democratic.

You're back to square one here.

What are you talking about? I never said or suggested that, I pointed out that it’s a feature of places with PR not that that was wrong.

If you can’t discuss things honestly then what’s the point?

You just made a Strawman Argument since I never once argued that "out of the goodness of their hearts, with no idea of self-interest, the Tories decided to give a load of money to Northern Ireland" (your words).

But that is clearly NOT the same thing as a bung which carries the connotation of dishonest, under the table, illegal, etc.

Still, the fact willfully and deliberately mischaracterised the £1billion as a "bung" does certainly suggest anger and resentment towards the people of Northern Ireland.

Were it not so, you wouldn't have framed it in such insulting terms AND would have apologised for describing it as a "bung".

Your "bung" claim is one I challenged you to show evidence of to which you have failed to do so. Obviously, there is NO evidence it was a "bung" of any description.

On the other hand, I proved it wasn't a "bung to the DUP" as the civil service allocated and distributed the money. All very above board as the breakdown of spending in the UK Parliament link demonstrates.

There is nothing wrong with regions and even constituencies looking to get the maximum political and financial capital they can get.

More to the point, it happens in ALL democratic systems - FPTP and all forms of PR.

Correct.

Even Labour Governments have made deals with minor parties, including the DUP under Brown.

Deal making is definitely a feature of democracy.

And other parts of the UK did receive extra funding in completely separate big money deals with the UK Government.

I previously said Scotland received £3billion and Wales £2billion. In the years since, Scotland has received more money than Wales and Northern Ireland.

Do you also complain about the Barnett Formula?!

Scotland and Northern Ireland benefit from that at the expense of England and Wales.

Yet you simply singled out Northern Ireland and regurgitated the nonsense about a "bung to the DUP" which is inaccurate anyway.

If anyone is making a specious and dishonest argument, it's you with your insinuations of bung money.

A claim you haven't provided evidence of!

Well....quite.

They’ve never been voted in by the majority of the population.

This is true. But as only about 65% turnout to vote, it's impossible to count the opinions of those who CBA. So the vote only counts the votes of those who turned up to the polling station. If you didn't bother to exercise your right to vote, then you can't complain later that this result wasn't what you wanted. An election can only count the votes cast, not the opinions of anyone who wanted to watch EastEnders instead.

I don’t agree with many tory policies but I can’t hate tory voters I know many who are kind people who are very charitable

people vote for parties for all different reasons as well as not voting for a party

Ive always voted Labour but refused to when Corbyn was leader I guess many who felt like me are to blame to but I do not regret my decision

That doesn't make sense, most countries don't do referendums for starters and those that do, put in conditions, as do most organisations in the UK that wish to change their rules.
Cameron, being an idiot/tory (often the same thing) failed to do even basic research on his referendum.

PR allows the general pop. to have an MP, more or less whoever they vote for.

So i want the bigoted racist to have an MP so when he/she stands up in the commons and comes out with racist garbage we can all see and maybe even their voters can too?

With PR, just because a party fails to get into that years coalition, doesn't mean they never will.
Under FPTP, fringe parties never really have a say, 2010 excepted.

oh and just because something is Normal & Democratic, doesn't mean it cannot be improved upon.

The vast majority of MP’s supported having a referendum they didn’t have to

every MP that support having a referendum is guilty how could they have been so foolish to one not be aware of how many people were unhappy in this country and secondly to not think that such a momentous vote should not have thorough discussions

its absolutely shameful how our MP’s have washed their hands of their own responsibilities