the "don't have kids if u can't afford them" mentality...

[MermaidCheeks]

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

If only those who could really afford to have kids had them - a decreasing well-off demographic -we'd be even more fucked than we already are.

Immigration is not a long-term solution when 80% of elderly are going to be spread across low and middle-affluent countries by 2050, either. Every country is going to need their own citizens.

Instead of resenting people who need their wages topped-up by the government in order to afford having a couple of kids - maybe embrace those who are making sacrifices to have kids at all, especially in the face of the overwhelming decrease in value that society and successive governments have placed on the role of raising children.

Had things been different I would have loved another child. I had my DS when in a relationship with money and education. Then I raised him on my own.

We have a responsibility to look after existing children well not to go on to have more. Claiming that additional children will become carers at some point in the future is a weak argument.

The urge to procreate is natural and everyone should be able to afford to have at least one child. After 1 or perhaps 2 it is up to the individual to decide how many they can afford — some may prefer to parent rather than have expensive holidays, or a larger home etc etc.
It is irresponsible to have a large family one cannot afford to provide for because that fails to meet the children’s needs.
The state has changed expectations and what an ordinary working person can aspire to exponentially in the past 100 years.
First living conditions were improved and infant mortality was drastically reduced, then more people were led to expect improved education and wages and the possibility of owning one’s own home. Working mothers were frowned on generally and a family could expect to live on a single wage.
Then an improved economy etc led to the availability of more consumer products and people were encouraged to fill their homes with mod cons. This meant a larger income was desirable and the need for more workers meant the wage earning mother became the majority and inflation etc meant for most families it became a necessity.
Failure of the state to recognise the working class families’ needs has led to the cost of raising children to have become prohibitive for many.
A more equal sharing of the country’s resources would mean not only the wealthy can bear children without fearing the cost will cripple them financially

This! If you have always received benefits and choose to have 1 child fine, but if you continue to have kids knowing you can't afford it then totally agree with the "don't have kids if you can't afford them" don't get to 6 kids in a 3 bed council house, then start complaining and wanting more and selling sob stories.

You seem to think you are doing me a favour by having your kids.
you are not!
me supporting you and your kids because I might need your kids to wipe my arse or my face really doesn’t win your argument.
I supported my children. I didn’t present them to the world as a gift, I raised them, I paid for them and I worked hard to pay for the childcare I needed, the home they had, the food they ate.
I totally agree with “don’t have kids if you can’t afford them”
Don't have kids if you as their parent can not afford to raise them.

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

The adult children of people who could afford to have them presumably. This is such a stupid thing to say. Immigration could have been a huge part of the solution, but too many people voted for Brexit unfortunately.

It’s in a child’s best interests to be born into a family that wants them and can provide for them, so I don’t see what’s so controversial about saying people should be able to afford children before they have them. Of course peoples circumstances change and sometimes people who started out being able to afford children find themselves in a position where they can’t, but that is what a benefits safety net is for. It should never be a long term choice to claim benefits.

Can you link the source of that please?
I work with families in poverty, and have never heard of that before.

What, like compulsory sterilisation & abortion? I mean, how else would it be enforced? Maybe everyone is surgically sterilised at age 13/14 & you have to apply to have it reversed, proving you are mentally & financially stable & have a suitable support system.

Global population control will ONLY be achieved by making sure that babies in poor countries reliably survive healthy to adulthood. Then almost everyone will choose to have fewer children and the living will all benefit. There is not a better way to keep human population down.

ps: I am thinking of people who had babies they couldn't afford because they profoundly disagreed with abortion. So... there's that. 2 of the babies were result of rape, btw.

I agree with it. Circumstances can change which is fair enough, but nobody should consciously have children if they already know they'll rely on the state to fund it.

Well the way things are going, only the rich will be able to afford to procreate soon. Who will they expect to serve them their designer coffee or look after their parents in the care home? I predict that there will be a lack of certain workers in different parts of the country - and it will be too late by that point.

So, if you can’t afford to have kids but feel that you have a ‘right’ to them, who should pay for them?

If you have kids when you cannot afford to feed, clothe and give them a half decent life, you should be bloody ashamed of yourself.

I grew up with parents who struggled financially. It was shit. Shameful, worrying, stressful. The only thing it did was to push me to never be in that situation myself as an adult and to never have a child until a. I could afford to give them a decent upbringing / life and b. I met a decent and kind man. Anything else would have been reckless and selfish.

There most definitely was a link published three or more children in a family meant they were much more likely to live in poverty. One of the food banks published it.

Thank you for this. Very refreshing read.

Children deserve to be born into a financially stable environment.

You didn't do anyone a favour having a child.
No one cares.
Look after your own elderly - don't throw them into care homes for a start.
The world is over populated anyway - people can be re-allocatwd.
If you don't have money accept you are bringing your kids up in poverty and don't expect anyone else to help you.

Re "look after your elderly"

what if you have to work or don't have the relevant skills or physical strength?

if you can pay for the care home place and it's available, what's wrong with using it?

I think this thread is awful. How can you be blaming poverty on parents choosing to have children?

JRF why don't you read some of the JRF stuff on poverty. Poverty is caused by low paid jobs, a crap benefit system, discrimination. Not parents having children.

Again, the privileged on mumsnet don't understand that not everyone gets a great education and therefore a well paid job. Not everyone comes from a well off middle class family. Not everyone marries a high earner. Etc.

And tbh, even if a person ticks all those boxes, they don't necessarily have happy, settled children.

or the hugely unfair two child limit which is pushing more children into poverty

I bet for a lot of people it's because they had kids that they now find they can't afford them😅 because we have a baby we are now getting half the income (can't return to where I work as it's just not parent friendly).

What's unfair about telling people "if you can't afford the children you've got, don't have another one"?

No it's not.

Having more children that you can afford is pushing them into poverty.

The way I see it is this:

you can be stable and get pregnant and then lose your job. At the time you chose to have children all was good, then life happened. However, if you can’t afford to live or eat etc and choose to get pregnant knowing that these are your circumstance then you are irresponsible to think it’s ok to do that. There’s a big difference between the two scenarios.

I get irritated seeing the stories of those in council homes stating there are 8 living in a 2 bed and then read on to discover that they had this home when it was 3 living in the house but chose to continue having children knowing they could not move. Personal choice is so different to change in circumstance.

Some absolute tossers out today mumsnet. Why should Johnson be allowed 7 children but the LSA at local primary not allowed any as their income is too low? Children are a privilege, a joy and usually bring much love and happiness to a family. Why should this be linked to income? Ideally everyone would have a decent minimum income, say £25,000 pa. This does not happen. We need hospital porters, care home assistants, dinner 'ladies', etc, they do not earn £25,000. A real financial problem occurs to families with more than 2 children is that benefits only support the first 2 (not child benefit). We all know that contraception is not 100% effective, that not everyone agrees with abortion, that some women get to 25 weeks before realising they are pregnant. We should pay more attention to helping families care for their children (Sure Start etc) as the £s spent in yrs 1-5 saves ££££s in later years.