the "don't have kids if u can't afford them" mentality...

[MermaidCheeks]

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

If only those who could really afford to have kids had them - a decreasing well-off demographic -we'd be even more fucked than we already are.

Immigration is not a long-term solution when 80% of elderly are going to be spread across low and middle-affluent countries by 2050, either. Every country is going to need their own citizens.

Instead of resenting people who need their wages topped-up by the government in order to afford having a couple of kids - maybe embrace those who are making sacrifices to have kids at all, especially in the face of the overwhelming decrease in value that society and successive governments have placed on the role of raising children.

*lots not lost!

I grew up in poverty with my three siblings, we had a very happy childhood. No holidays, no TV, no car, no meals out, not even a chippy tea. We all grew up knowing that we were loved, a parent was always there for us, we read a lot, talked a lot, played games, made great memories. We’ve all grown into well balanced adults, we’re a very close knit family and are always there for each other.
I’ve had three kids, was a stay at home mum, we cut back on a lot to be able to do that, no holidays abroad or expensive gifts. My three children all went to uni, all have professional careers that puts something back into society, all live in lovely homes and all very happy and secure.
So basically my Mum had four children when living in poverty and look where we are now.
This country needs kids and society as a whole needs to support them.

Normal Jobs in the UK do not pay normal wages compared to other countries in Europe. At least N Europe.
Thatcher ruined A LOT for working families, and the repercussions are still felt. And the causes may never be amended.

I remember a newspaper talking about how the poor shouldn’t breed. About 15 yrs ago.
So this talk about how you shouldn’t have children if you can’t afford them is still flung about to preoccupy people rather than having them look to solutions.

Seriously, when you are still on that level of discourse instead of working on policies that would level the playing field and generate fiscal equality … 🤷🏽‍♀️🤷🏽‍♀️
good luck!!

@MermaidCheeks , no, but everyone can make it clear in a Health and Welfare Power of Attorney that in certain circumstances, they do not want any active treatment - no ‘striving to keep alive’.

My stated circumstances are, that if I should be suffering from dementia, or from any other condition where I’m unable both to care for myself and speak (with full mental capacity) for myself, then I ask for palliative care only.

DH’s P of A says the same.

I am one of six children. My df earned very little and most of that went to the bookie. My dm returned to work when youngest child was 5 because we were basically surviving on family allowance (precursor to child benefit). Df tried to persuade dm to have baby no. 7 so he could give up work and live off benefits.
Our childhood was miserable, secondhand clothes, no money, no socialising, three to a room, constantly humiliated as teens. Coat from the school charity box.
I started work at 13 because I wanted some clothes that weren't school uniform. I left home at 18 and never went back.

I have one child at independent school. We have a nice house, good food, new clothes, holidays, swimming lessons, karate classes, friends.
I would choke rather than fail my child as our parents failed us. So I completely agree, don't have more children than you can afford - for the child's sake. It is the ultimate act of selfishness.

Having children is generally a luxury and a selfish decision, but particularly so when you are relying on other people (ie taxpayers) to pay for them. The very definition of "entitled".

It’s entirely different to have 1 or 2 children & fall on hard times or do t earn enough to someone with4 kids where the parents will never & have never worked & expect the government to fund them & their children.

People always have kids. It keeps the world going. It doesn’t matter if someone has nothing, who says they shouldn’t be a parent? What law exactly is there? Do we means test parents?
Some kids are born into poverty and become entrepreneurial.
China dropped the one child rule when they realised that there wouldn’t be enough working age people to pay taxes.

A ridiculous statement. Peoples circumstances change.

Why’s having children a luxury or selfish decision? It’s a lot easier to not have children.

But I should add, that having multiple children when you expect the state to fund your lifestyle is also wrong. I’m my opinion.
Who on benefits needs four plus children ?

Cornetto it certainly sounds like your expectation of services is a lot different than mine. I posted something about that on the NHS thread but I seem to have been the thread killer!

How ridiculous, what about people who choose not to have children? Their taxes go towards schooling for children. They pay taxes towards their own social care. The system is a mess but it’s not due to people not having enough children! Especially ones whose parents don’t work and rely on the state. The likelihood is these kids won’t bother working either and are a cost to the county not a benefit. People should only have children if they can afford them it is entirely selfish to think otherwise. I don’t necessarily buy the low birth rate argument either. Schools have increased in size massively since I left school 20 years ago, every school around here has at least two more year groups than when I was at school. Where have those children come from or are they all immigrants?

I think what you’re saying is all a bit silly OP. Plenty of people simply can’t afford to have the number of kids that they do. Who on a minimum wage job can afford 6 kids? DH and I earn in the region of £80k and would have loved a third child, but we didn’t as the sums didn’t work out for us. People shouldn’t overstretch themselves on anything be it kids or designer clothes and then complain they’re skint.

Disclaimer, i appreciate some people have multiple pregnancies (twins etc) and may end up with more kids than they planned.

I thought I could afford them but I didn't realise that my x would be such a shit partner, didn't anticipate that my earning potential would be so drastically reduced after a few years out of the workplace. I was still youngish, but had been out of the workplace a FEW years and felt unemployable! Or at least, the salaries of the jobs I could get, they wouldn't have covered childcare + expenses.
I could NEVER have been pessimistic enough to fear that my earning potential would take such a dip.

Is this a PofA or advanced directive please? I need to do both!

Sometimes, you genuinely cannot afford to feed, clothe and house a child. I am talking about the basics here. We are very fortunate in the UK to have a welfare system and it is wonderful and we should protect it. It is a limited resource and should act as a safety net, not a lifestyle choice. Having children is not a right, if you genuinely cannot afford the basics, you should not have more children. That is unfair to the child.

But once they are at school, you'll be fine. Money being tight is temporary and due to childcare costs. You'll get past that in a year or two.
The problem is when people have so many children, they don't have a hope in hell of feeding them, and often never intend to.

Shouldn’t it be a about what the children deserve.

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER I have similar and tbh, if I’m diagnosed with dementia or something awful like Parkinson’s or ALS, I’ll probably make arrangements to end my life while I still have capacity. I’m certainly not suggesting others do the same, that’s just my personal plan.

DH’s Grandma had dementia but was physically healthy so she lived until 93 in an increasingly distressed state. It was awful to witness.

I think it is cruel to have children you know you cannot afford. I do think people should be supported in having 1/2 but it is selfish to have several when you don't have suitable accommodation and they will have to go without growing up.

I am very much in favour of personal choice and giving people the tools to make a free and fair decision either way (e.g. contraception, abortion, maternity services and conversely, support for families to raise the kids, such as child benefits).

However...in the same way we've seen coercive practices over restricting fertility in the past (China and India come to mind), the same applies to having kids. Romania banned abortion and contraception in 1966 and their birthrate doubled with some very inhumane results. When Poland banned abortion last year, one of the figleaves used to justify the decision was the need to prop up the birthrate. I've seen similar arguements made in the abortion debate in America.

Over in Singapore - one of the lowest fertility rates in the world (1.14), there have been marketing campaign to persuade families to have more children. Likewise, South Korea is doing the same whilst Hungary is using outright bribery. Once a culture gets used to small families, it's really hard to turn

In the real world...

I don't think being poor should prevent someone having children. But if money is tight, please stop at 2 for their sake. Just common sense, surely?

It's not just people on benefits - most families have to consider their income then deciding on family size.

I remember reading an article about a woman who had been put in B & B accommodation with her 6 children. They had 2 rooms between them. I was feeling very sorry for her until I read on and discovered that she'd only had 2 when placed in the B & B....and went on to have the other 4, knowing full well that her circumstances would make this very difficult. I thought she was crazy.

My grandparents were married for five years and saved up to have two children both of whom are an absolute bloody nightmare for them until the day they died. I was felt really sorry for them that they saved up all that time and that’s what they got.

That said I had £10,000 per child saved before they were conceived, and if that hadnt been possible they wouldnt have happened but mentally i needed that safety net beforehand.

I don’t necessarily buy the low birth rate argument either

its not up for debate it’s a fact. Feel free to Google.

What a load of bollocks.

They're no more "making sacrifices" than someone who wants a new car so doesn't go on holiday.

Having children is a purely selfish act, driven by nothing but desire to have children. Don't try to make out it's anything else.