the "don't have kids if u can't afford them" mentality...

[MermaidCheeks]

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

If only those who could really afford to have kids had them - a decreasing well-off demographic -we'd be even more fucked than we already are.

Immigration is not a long-term solution when 80% of elderly are going to be spread across low and middle-affluent countries by 2050, either. Every country is going to need their own citizens.

Instead of resenting people who need their wages topped-up by the government in order to afford having a couple of kids - maybe embrace those who are making sacrifices to have kids at all, especially in the face of the overwhelming decrease in value that society and successive governments have placed on the role of raising children.

Personally I do agree with this. I had to stop at 2 kids as we couldn't afford to buy a bigger house and it wouldn't of been fair on the kids we already had to add another child into their room. Yes me and hubby could have put our want for another child above our kids needs for space and quality of life. But that would have been selfish on our part.

Our children are now teenagers and were in a better position so looking for a bigger house and we will have another child, now can afford to.

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?
Who do you think will be looking after them? The children of people who couldn't afford their upbringing?! What a completely bizarre thought process.

OP what did you do before you became a carer?

Realistically you working full time instead of 25 hours a week, therefore contributing more in tax and NI would be much more beneficial to society than me having another child that'd make us financially uncomfortable.

China tried this and they are now frantically reversing their stance as the generation pyramid is 4-2-1 with just one worker trying to look after the rest of the family in some cases. On top of this, their ratios are badly skewed towards boys.

I can actually see the reverse happening in some countries - an insistence on at least one child per family "to keep the population going." The total fertility rate for the world as a whole is decreasing.

A pyramid scheme that humanity has functioned on for centuries. If you have a better idea please do expand on it on a better platform than this.

Nobody needs to ‘churn out kids’, but there does need to be a better way of dividing up resources and compensating skills that are needed.

not on the quoted post specifically, but I suspect there are a fair few nihilists on this thread who, if pushed, would admit that they don’t think humanity should exist at all. Fair enough, but I do tire of the covert hatred of their fellow species disguised as conceit and superiority.

You won't win here OP.

The UK has become a massively anti family/anti children mentality.

Unless you have zero or one child, drive an electric car and want the country flooded with immigrants to work in social care to look after the obscenely ageing population then your opinion isint welcome here.

We're not talking wealthy though we're just talking about being able to afford the basics for the child to have a good life .
I accept that people's circumstances can change but imo no-one should have a child they expect the state to fund from the get go and I'm also amazed at these women who have children with these deadbeat blokes who common sense says will run out on you at some point and avoid maintenance.
It's not fair on the kids and that's the primary factor

I get the point you are making OP. Spain has been a demographic crisis for years now due to low birthrates.
Obviously people should not have children if they unable to give them a decent life, but poverty isn't the only thing that can damage a child.
If the family is poor but its members are strongly committed to one another I imagine the children could thrive. We live in an extremely materialistic culture and this is reflected in a lot of the answers you are receiving.
Society should value its children. All of them, those wealthy and those less wealthy. There is a lot of demonising of the less wealthy in British society.

Who exactly do this lot think are going to be looking after them in hospitals and care homes when they're elderly and infirm?

Why do you think those kids will work in hospitals and care homes? Maybe they will be career criminals. Or drug dealers. Or living on benefits.

I definitely did not have children so they can wipe people's bums in a nursing home for a living. If that is the best reason you can come up with for people having more children than they can afford then I think you need to rethink your argument.

I personally would never want to deny anyone the right to become a parent but maybe people should be limiting the NUMBER of children unless they really can afford to support those children for life.

We chose to have two children because we felt, at a stretch, we can support that number of children for the rest of their lives.

We toyed with a third but decided it would split resources that could go to our existing children.

I think there’s a middle ground here.

Yes, some common sense has to be exercised as to how many children a person can afford (as in by the person having the children)

Equally society does need a future generation. The over population some people talk about is in the older generations so it’s not wholly selfish to have children.

And obviously circumstances do change.

Very true

Only if the only thing you value is money.

And not say, time to parent and invest love and attention in your kids. Don’t forget the 40 hour working week is based on a 1950s model where you have one partner at home doing all the domestic stuff so the other can work the 40 hours. In reality she’s working 25 hours more than she should need to.

Completely agree.
No one had kids for altruistic reasons, it’s to replicate themselves.
I too would rather euthanasia if it came to dementia.

People who can take care of a child’s needs are not judged for procreating. People who can’t often are and rightly so. Also where did you get the idea that the children from extreme poverty would be doing medical and care work? that’s not what’s happening at the moment.

it is absolutely irresponsible to have a child you can’t care for- whether emotionally or financially. It’s damaging to the child and society in general.

Also you can’t expect society to pay for you and your choices. You can’t complain if you are stuck in rented housing if you made the choice to have children young rather than buy a house. you can’t complain you have a low income if you chose to have children young rather than build a career.

Accidents happen but deliberately choosing to have a child you can’t afford is irresponsible.

What is the danger to society that you speak of? There are a few that I can think of but I'm not sure what you mean

@Juii off the top of my head, a society significantly overburdened by elderly demographic is going to experience health care inequalities, housing issues, financial inequality, demands on family members all of which cause stress and resentment in other age groups. History shows us what we’re capable of when our survival is threatened and the shift in the general atmosphere following covid coupled with climate fears and decline in living standards has shown me enough to know that anything threatening expectations results in civil unrest and opportunists.

@EmmaH2022 Re: infrastructure for elderly care - mostly the skills and experience needed to support any quality of life that medical science has created an expectation of but also the physical residences and wider services that can make the difference between maintaining independence and not.

There’s no point in having dementia and lots of money to pay for care if there are no carers or medical appointments to support things like nutrition because there’s no one staffing or funding organised services.

@Weefreetiffany her whole point is the benefit to society. That's what I'm challenging.

@MermaidCheeks

Yes, only the well off are not judged for procreating. My original point stands

The offspring of the well of will not be doing those caring jobs you talk about though, is it? Let's be realistic, people who go into social care don't come from wealthy backgrounds.

So you really are saying that the poor should have lots of children to do the lower paid jobs in society. How about we think about a way to STOP perpetuating inequality.

Equally society does need a future generation. The over population some people talk about is in the older generations so it’s not wholly selfish to have children.

Overpopulation is a global socio-economic and environmental problem. It's unnatural to have this many humans in the world, with such a high ecological footprint. Unless we build on every square metre of nature, in which case im sure we could accommodate everyone, but few want that.

Overpopulation is very much an issue, but it's not up to the comfortable and wealthy to smugly decide who gets to have children.

Please tell me hpw you can insist everyone has one child?

What exactly do you propose to do with those that can't have or don't want DC

*will they!

Excuse my grammar!

I agree. I also think it's silly for people to have another kid when they're already struggling financially with the one or more they already have.

Do you prefer children born into poverty then op just to get more carers? Maybe missing meals and other basic needs? Even if these kids don't become carers?

Our generation is going to suffer in old age I'm afraid. You'd better get used to that fact, we need to reduce the birth rate to save the planet more than we need to produce more kids. Or your children will have a very shit future.

Which option do you prefer? Shit old age for you possibly (depending on how you age), or shit future for your children?

Completely agree
No one had kids for altruistic reasons, it’s to replicate themselves

I think it’s a mixture, peoples drive to conceive children is undoubtedly driven by selfish desires but past that I’ve never come across a functioning parent who wants their child to have less than a successful future in the world and invariably that results in some sort of benefit for the rest of society.

just having a child is one very small part of the desire to create a family, by and large people are also raising them with a focus on them being successful by lost measures. If parents don’t do that then it’s in societies interest to step in and foster that if they want a productive adult to emerge.