Are you a feminist, if yes, what does it mean to you?

[YouAreNotBatman]

YANBU = I’m am
YABU = I am not

No, my lovely trans friend wouldn't dream of trying to argue that feminists should fight for the rights of natal males. Because it makes no sense.

I support trans people being happy and healthy. I don't support the idea that women should be happy to be collateral damage in instances where there is a conflict of natal male's wishes and natal female's safety, dignity and right to compete fairly in sport.

My trans friend would never expect a young girl to be comfortable with someone with a penis in their changing rooms. They wouldn't expect a Muslim woman to no longer go swimming as mixed facilities are not allowed in their religion. They wouldn't expect women to sit along side someone with a penis in a rape crisis centre or women's refuge. They wouldn't expect girls and women to welcome people with the biological advantages of male puberty into their sports at the expense of fair competition and women's safety.

The people who think women should shut up and accept those things, or include natal males under the umbrella of people who should directly benefit from feminism, do so much damage to the lives of decent trans people who don't want women to be uncomfortable, unsafe or unable to exist in single sex spaces.

Flores et al (2021) “Gender Identity Disparities in Criminal Victimisation” and Pearce et al (2020) “TERF wars: An introduction” shows that transgender women are more at risk of sexual assault and violence than biological women

Can you link the exact stat, or copy and paste, with the source? I'm not going to accept it without seeing where it comes from, because frankly I think it's not likely to be true. I'm well used to the disingenuous nature of most trans activist statistics so until I can evaluate it and weigh up how relevant or reliable it is I'll take this claim with a dose of salt.

Lmao I post my examples and opinions and get asked for sources to back up what I’m saying. I provide them and it’s all “I’m not reading that I’m asking you”. I’ve told you and I’ve given you a source, if you are genuinely interested and don’t just want a row, you’d read to verify what I’m saying. Clearly you can’t be arsed, that’s fine. But don’t tell me I’m wrong when I know full well I’m not and have provided the evidence to prove it

Being viewed as not feminine enough because of ridiculously narrow standards of beauty is an example of how detrimental gender is. It's not an argument which proves that black women were ever regarded as men! They were and still are discriminated against as women - sex as well as race.

If anything it’s highlighting the racist abuse they’ve experienced - please feel free to read the sources I have posted to develop your understanding of this

I honestly cannot believe the cheek of you posting this when you have had previous posts deleted on this thread for racism.

I'm still a bit stunned that sexism only exists and is experienced by people who present as women and not actual women.

Wondering where my increased wage went when I worked in construction, presenting the same hair style and clothes as the men I managed and yet was still paid less than.

The sources provided don’t discuss beauty standards, they discuss masculinity and the exclusion of black women from “white feminism”.

Lmao I post my examples and opinions and get asked for sources to back up what I’m saying. I provide them and it’s all “I’m not reading that I’m asking you”. I’ve told you and I’ve given you a source,

You've not told me anything, you made a claim and I asked for examples. You chose to post a link to three separate works instead of simply engaging in discussion and providing examples.
Makes me think you don't actually have any.

I think it's not really engaging in a debate to expect people to read and digest pages of stuff if you can't articulate your own understanding of it yourself.

Because it’s not as rigid as finding an example and discussing it. The sources posted discuss historic racism and colonialism and how this has negatively impacted black women. It’s not as easy as saying oh Jo Bloggs was viewed as masculine therefore misogynoir is real.

I never just slap down links that I can't myself explain, and I expect to have to explain why they make my case.

Please read through all my posts if you want, I’ve made the claims and the sources are the evidence. I’ve been debating this for 3 hours and can’t keep repeating myself. The sources provided are in response to the other posts I’ve made on this thread.

For me it can't be feminism unless it's intersectional and fights for equality. Because how can women be equal unless ALL women are equal. What harms one of us harms all of us to an extent. That absolutely includes trans women and for those asking about what happens when there's a conflict- really there's not that much conflict that occurs in reality that can't be resolved with open discourse and genuine attempt at understanding. I think feminism is about action and looking at what needs to change to provide equity so everyone has equal opportunities even though that might look different for different people to better meet the needs of all. I think feminism is about trying to deconstruct traditional gender roles and the stereotypes that go with them which actually benefits everyone in the long run.

Yes, that is often an argument used to try and discredit feminists who centre women, especially in the US. Most of your sources seem to be about the US. It is not my experience or the experience of anyone I know. Whilst it may be true in some circles, it's only pushed by certain ideologues in this way.

My thesis wasn’t in biology, and even so wouldn’t need a list of women banned

I would be very surprised any thesis that was arguing on a biological basis that mentioned females being banned from sport due to high testosterone would not need to be backed up with reference material and fact checked.

I believe women with higher testosterone levels are women, you don’t, fine.

You referred to 'females'. And presented an example of two males. Whether they identify as 'women' is irrelevant to the regulations that apply to their 'banning'. I have not discussed whether they are women or not.

Yes I know people are categorised into male or female categories, but this has changed over time based on who we want to exclude, and historically excluded non-white women, something which I also wrote about in my thesis.

No. I specifically asked if you were aware that people with differences in sex development, who you seem to have used as comparators in your thesis, could reliably be categorised into either male or female sex categories.

And why do you believe that it historically excluded 'non-white females'? In your thesis, what was your argument as to why this happened?

Was it racism? Do these differences of sex development occur more in one group of people vs others? Or... was it that these athletes came from countries that had poor medical care and these athletes were let down by the health systems in their countries and that the prevalence of these conditions is not different between groups of people?

I am higher ranking and higher paid than any man in my company. I took 6 months of parental leave and my husband took the following 6 months. Childcare in my household is shared 50/50.

Am I not living my life as a woman?

I've read your posts, you haven't explained. It's unreasonable just to post a load of densely written links on a casual chat forum when you can't explain specifically what they are saying and what they mean to your argument.

Because it’s not as rigid as finding an example and discussing it. The sources posted discuss historic racism and colonialism and how this has negatively impacted black women. It’s not as easy as saying oh Jo Bloggs was viewed as masculine therefore misogynoir is real

You have nothing then? I'm black, spent first part of my life under British rule, then dictatorship and now democracy.
I'd love for you to properly engage with me and not just post links.

something which I also wrote about in my thesis.

Do you still stand by your claims in your thesis then about females being banned in sport?

Because it’s not as rigid as finding an example and discussing it.

How is that rigid?

Finding an example of something you've claimed to be true (such as the stats you say show that transgender women are more at risk of sexual assault and violence than biological women) and discussing it is a perfectly sensible and normal way to engage in good faith on a discussion forum.

You've asked questions of others and had direct answers from them. I'm sure you'll appreciate it's frustrating to not have the same courtesy in return.

When two women every week are murdered by current or former male partners in the UK, and many, many, many more women than that are sexually assaulted, I'm a bit baffled as to how you think they are at less risk than trans women so sharing the relevant part of your source along with your own thoughts doesn't seem like much to ask if you're here in good faith.

When two women every week are murdered by current or former male partners in the UK

And no trans people of either sex have been murdered in the U.K. in the last 3 and a half years, let's not forget.

By the way, those males who have been excluded from sporting events are still able to participate as males in male sports.

They are not ‘banned’ from sport, just female sporting categories.

Okay what kind of example would you like? I’ve explained how historically black women were associated with hyper masculinity and seen as a threat to white women and female fragility. I don’t know how I can provide an example of that other than through sources which verify it - it’s historical, I can’t produce an eye witness account. By creating an image of black women as hyper masculine, the concept of white fragility and vulnerability was perpetuated. I don’t know how else I can explain this, genuinely.

Shout this aloud!

Also I just want to say the transphobia on here is unreal and really disappointing because here's the thing - we walk past trans people daily without knowing they are transgender. We share bathroom's and single sex spaces with trans people all the time without even realising it. If a transwoman is as unsafe as I am to walk home alone at night then they are living a similar experience to me a cis gendered woman and its naieve to think that they aren't targeted because they are perceived as female and vulnerable just as i would be. That is a feminist issue. The issue people are skirting around in that argument is sctually how important is it to you WHEN someone transitioned because if they didn't have the means or support to do it early it is much more difficult to "pass" as male or female post puberty. And that is absolutely transphobic and based on appearance. Also let's remember that lots of people are born intersex and with indiscernable genitalia. By focusing solely on chromosomes and biology you are completely leaving out entire groups of people who have been raised as female from birth? Why would we do that? As feminists we should be trying to support one another instead of in fighting over who's the 'most female'.